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Thread: Police encounter at softball game

  1. #76
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvyshamrock View Post
    ...but having been at Virginia Tech, I feel better that if someone speaks up that something feels wrong, that it's checked out. If I see someone poking around looking fishy, I call security or the police. ...
    Was the shooter at Virginia Tech sitting round minding his own business while open carrying before he started shooting people?

    Was the OP in this thread "poking around looking fishy?"

    I can appreciate your comments but don't see the connection to this circumstance.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    It's one thing for a cop to say it, another for the calltaker to say that. The calltaker isn't there and doesn't see the situation -- the smart thing to do is send the cop. We don't have to like it, but it IS the smart thing, and it IS what's going to happen.

    How WE handle it is up to us. If we are polite, and stand on our rights, they have little to argue with, and things generally go well.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    The cops will make contact because if they don't, the caller will call again demanding to know where they are, because they've been watching.

    When the cops get a MWAG call, where all that's happening is that there is a MWAG, lecturing the caller won't help -- there has to be contact or the problem hasn't been resolved. Once the cops walk away, they're covered, the OCer is covered, and a hoplophobe is even more frustrated than before -- I find this MOST enjoyable, and wish that it would happen more!

    SNIP If there IS a problem and they don't respond, then they get raked over the coals.
    I've already addressed this justification earlier in this thread.

    Those are political considerations. Rights are not susceptible to political considerations. One of the primary reasons for having a bill of rights in democratic republic is to remove those items from the table, make them no longer susceptible to the political winds (whims).

    DVC's is the very same argument--eye dent uh cull--to the arguments used by police on this very forum. It's a tired argument. A trite argument. A specious argument.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2012 at 05:31 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't see that "make lemonade" in any way refers to over zealous law enforcement or harm coming to a LAC.
    Is there more than one "lemonade" post above post #53-54? It looked pretty plain to me.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2012 at 05:34 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    I gotta agree with Merlin on this one. The goal of this group is to educate the populace that OC is legal/normal/safe, is it not? For nervous sheep, seeing police approach an OCer, have a polite conversation that ends with a handshake and no change in behavior by said OCer illustrates that everything was fine. If said interaction occurs in full view of a bleacher-full of people, well that strikes me as being education in bulk. Very efficient.

    On the other hand, as others have pointed out, such situations create the opportunity for ignorant/overzealous LEO to do what they do. And seeing the OCer thrown to the ground, cuffed, and hauled away would only serve to reinforce incorrect assumptions about OC's legality.

    To invoke some cliches, these situations present both danger and opportunity. Make lemonade.
    As with ManinBlack, I owe no one to expose myself to the barely-bridled power of police in order to make a good impression on others. Particularly, when it exposes me to legal and physical danger. Are 95% of cops good? I'll make the decision for myself as to whether to take that chance, whether 95% or 2% are good, thank you very much.

    My recipe for lemonade includes the government agents observing from a distance. And, handling their political problems by calling back the complaintant and telling them there was nothing illegal or suspicious observed. I am very firm about what goes in my lemonade. Just a very few grains more of such an ingredient ruins the recipe. It offends my taste for liberty.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2012 at 06:16 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I full recognize that it is only the 95% of law enforcers that give the 5% who are peace officers a bad name...
    I'm willing to recognize that 95% of police officers let the 5% bad apples give them a bad name. Blue Wall of Silence.

    I'm willing to entertain that 95% of police officers enable or even encourage the 5% bad apples to give them a bad name. Blue Wall of Silence.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    SNIP When we chose to see all LEOs in a negative light and propagate only the extreme negative, then we are in fact LEO bashing.
    Oh, **ck. Here we go again. Now cop-bashing is being redefined. Again.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2012 at 06:04 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
    SNIP I totally get the argument that there is no reason for contact. That's true, there is no reason for contact. But that doesn't mean that contact is a fully negative thing. I welcome a contact that affirms what I am doing, and exhibits some respect for doing so. Is there no such thing as a positive contact? To me, positive contacts are an excellent way to gauge the success rate of our agenda. Not only for our benefit, but for the benefit of others. In this case the PR just learned something. As did all the people within earshot of her. What if 1 more person in the crowd will OC now, because they just learned that it is legal. I consider that success worth a little contact. AS LONG AS IT IS RESPECTFUL. That part can't be stressed enough.
    You're necessarily saying negative contacts are a way to judge the (non)success of our agenda, too. Its a little like saying I'm supposed to expose myself to rights violations or worse in order to judge the success (or failure) of our agenda.

    Even if we take into account your harping on respectful contacts, you can't get around the fact that you have no way to know whether a police encounter will be "good" or bad until it is too late to prevent it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

  9. #84
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2276
    Don't you know that only the sanctified priesthood of state violence (as Will Grigg calls police officers) are worthy to carry firearms in public?
    Speaking of police violence, check out this late-breaking video from Milwaukee, WI.
    Notice the standard shout of "stop resisting", when the guy is clearly face-down on the ground & being held there.
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  10. #85
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Speaking of police violence, check out this late-breaking video from Milwaukee, WI.
    Notice the standard shout of "stop resisting", when the guy is clearly face-down on the ground & being held there.
    Typical. "Tensing your body" is now considered resisting. I also love the vulgarity that our "heroes" speak in.

    These types of videos are now coming out every month, if not every week. How many do we never hear about, because there aren't audio/video recorders present? How many times do the paladins of public order just high-five each other while playing grabass in the locker room, joking about what happened to the latest "mere citizen" who dared to protest their actions?

    This is exactly why I maintain and will teach my children that any citizen who comes in close proximity to police officers is at risk of losing life, liberty, and property.

    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
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  11. #86
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    I have had the cops called on me more then once in Henderson over the past few years. I think all of them documented in posts I made here. Each time the interactions were minimal. I live on the border of Las Vegas and have had metro called on me at least once. It is true that I take a risk every time I interact with the police yet I will continue to carry. I will not resist nor argue with any cop. I have learned from the mistakes of others when dealing with the police. I don't do drugs or act erratic and remain very calm and collected. The cops will get called on us from time to time. I know a lot of you would disagree with the way I treat cops when I do have an encounter. I don't get upset because they made contact and I smile a lot and engage in petty conversation like the weather. I don't go to "am I being detained" mode right off the bat. These guys good, bad, or indifferent are still part of our community. The Big Guy has done a lot of work here in Henderson and the word is out for sure. The public in general is the battle that I think will provide the most good for the OC scene here locally. For the story in this thread having 50 people or so see a MWAG be approached by police in a quick encounter that ended in a handshake should have an impact on at least a discussion or two after the fact for each of them no matter how they feel about the subject.

    The best part of the whole deal is I get to see the same couple twice a week for a couple months! Every Tuesday and Friday. Todays game was rained out. I could be a d**k and sit right next to them every game we play against them which is once every 2 weeks but I don't think that would accomplish much. i will instead act as if nothing is out of the ordinary and continue to watch the games. Haters gonna hate. In the mean time all those people will see a normal person open carrying and hopefully try and engage me in conversation about it. I printed out the tri fold documents to hand out in case that happens. If on the other hand the cops get called on me again I will get a report or number from them. If anyone wants to watch slow pitch softball feel free to join me in the stands Tuesdays and Fridays!

  12. #87
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    I just want the police to go about their business as I go about mine. I'm not hurting, threatening anybody. They have no reason to bother me. If what I'm doing is in accordance with the law, then perhaps the police should make contact with the caller/complainant and explain the law and put them at ease. I don't need anybody telling me "you're ok", or "you're obeying the law". I already know that. I know the laws. Explain the law to those who call in complaints and waste police department manpower/tax dollars, because they don't.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 04-14-2012 at 02:36 AM.
    Hoka hey

  13. #88
    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengum View Post
    I have had the cops called on me more then once in Henderson over the past few years. I think all of them documented in posts I made here. Each time the interactions were minimal. I live on the border of Las Vegas and have had metro called on me at least once. It is true that I take a risk every time I interact with the police yet I will continue to carry. I will not resist nor argue with any cop. I have learned from the mistakes of others when dealing with the police. I don't do drugs or act erratic and remain very calm and collected. The cops will get called on us from time to time. I know a lot of you would disagree with the way I treat cops when I do have an encounter. I don't get upset because they made contact and I smile a lot and engage in petty conversation like the weather. I don't go to "am I being detained" mode right off the bat. These guys good, bad, or indifferent are still part of our community. The Big Guy has done a lot of work here in Henderson and the word is out for sure. The public in general is the battle that I think will provide the most good for the OC scene here locally. For the story in this thread having 50 people or so see a MWAG be approached by police in a quick encounter that ended in a handshake should have an impact on at least a discussion or two after the fact for each of them no matter how they feel about the subject.

    The best part of the whole deal is I get to see the same couple twice a week for a couple months! Every Tuesday and Friday. Todays game was rained out. I could be a d**k and sit right next to them every game we play against them which is once every 2 weeks but I don't think that would accomplish much. i will instead act as if nothing is out of the ordinary and continue to watch the games. Haters gonna hate. In the mean time all those people will see a normal person open carrying and hopefully try and engage me in conversation about it. I printed out the tri fold documents to hand out in case that happens. If on the other hand the cops get called on me again I will get a report or number from them. If anyone wants to watch slow pitch softball feel free to join me in the stands Tuesdays and Fridays!
    Think you did a fine job in handling it your way, greengum.

    In seeking a positive resolution to such MWAG calls, there are several schools of thought at play here. One suggests that no direct interaction with LE is the best (only?) way for such events to occur - in other words they shouldn't happen when the MWAG is doing nothing overt. I cannot disagree in theory, but as a practical day-to-day thing that isn't going to happen........yet.

    Then there is the "it's my right,"I'm I being detailed" purist response wherein no cooperation is given beyond what the law requires. I will not take a stand against that from a legal perspective and recognize the opportunity such may offer to teach the community a lesson in law and rights. Frequently, this reaction is the chosen when faced with an aggressive or fishing officer.

    Also available is the relaxed (this is no problem) reaction, especially when the responding officer(s) doesn't take a hard line, ask for permit, or push for information under color of law. In your case, the officer fit very much into the good guy category in most respects - at least he seems to have tried to genuinely be that. You chose to meet his "handshake" demeanor both figuratively and literally. That was a personal choice and one that definitely delivered a clear message of your attitude and character to those watching. More to the point, it also clearly defined the legality of a LAC carrying a gun in a responsible manner.

    While some encounters may incorporate elements of both the above solutions, there is no "one size fits all" that may effectively be selected. The mode you employed worked best for you and IMO delivered the message you intended to those observing. You and the officer played out an effective win/win solution with the circumstances at hand. Kudos.

    Public relations is a fine art form, not a science, and that is a major part of what we do every day as we go about our normal everyday lives with a pistol on our hip.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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  14. #89
    Founder's Club Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    How one handles a situation like this isn't going to be the same in each circumstance. Would it be best to have what we do be the norm so there is never a call, yup, but unrealistic to expect. I think we all have that inner voice that warns us of trouble that comes from natural instinct and by life’s experiences. When anyone walks up to you, you immediately get a feeling of intent by the demeanor of the person approaching. If a cop approaches, stiff, ready for action, looking for trouble, go with that and go into the "Am I being detained" mode. If his approach is relaxed and friendly, arms naturally at his side, relaxed expression, go with that and go with Greengum friendly mode. No two situations are the same. I have said it before and still say it, how I react to a Henderson Cop is much different than I would react to Metro. This goes to the life’s experience bit. Your town may differ.

    Greengums experience has ultimately showed him how to react and he did well. How come he seems to get the law called on him more than the rest of us combined? (For those with no sense of humor, that last line was supposed to be funny.) In truth, some of us can go through our day to day lives totin' a firearm and never get looked at twice. Others of us get the once over by everyone they meet. Such is the draw of the cards and those folks have to learn how to handle it.

    Although I try to have situational awareness, OC or not, I quite simply do not notice anymore some of the quick glances that people give me. My wife will say "did you see that guy looking at your firearm?" Nope, I was oblivious to it. If someone stops and stares I immediately pick it up and that does not happen very often.

    I take my kids to the park almost every day for a walk. Hmmm, we have not been to Morel in a while, and I should explain the game of softball to them.

    TBG
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  15. #90
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Here is another way to address the situation. There is a lot going on here so read carefully and perform your due diligence to understand.



    "Hello Officer, I am NOT interested in contracting with you at this time. Do you require physical assistance?".
    Then...DO NOT SPEAK FURTHER. If you do, it will be construed, and presumed as an offer from you to begin contract negotiations.

    It does not matter what the Officer/Agent says after that sentence to you.
    Simply repeat the sentence.

    Do not modify the sentence, unless you want to contract with the Officer.
    DO NOT answer questions (See Above).
    You have ZERO contractual obligation at this time to speak with ANY contract offering Officer, short of having caused, physical harm, damage or loss.

    So...simply repeat the sentence.

    There shouldn't be any more problems...after all the Officer is just pulling you over to be nice and helpful, and offer you a contract at the same time. Tell him, "No Spank you, very much.".

    Now, when they get tired of pulling you over, only to hear the same thing over and over, they will eventually tell each other and stop it, short of you destroying somebody's stuff.



    "Hello Officer, I am not interested in contracting with you at this time."

    You KEEP addressing it that way.
    MINIMAL interaction is key. The MOST minimal is the above, straight, to the point, under the old law of Palaver and Parlay. No Officer/Agent in his right mind could possibly misunderstand that unless you modify it, or speak OUTSIDE of it...thusly opening yourself to contracting.

    The game has not changed, it is still the same, if you did not cause harm, damage or loss, and do not present any fictions, nor presumptions...there is no "disputable issue" as your jurisdiction has not been waived.

    What you are saying, is a possible scenario where they keep talking in order to get you to waive jurisdiction, you did, and they arrest you.

    Or-

    You are presenting a possible scenario where they simply break the law and put you in the jail-house no matter what. Then again...they would do that anyway whether it was lawful or not...some agents/officers are like that.

    As long as they think they can contract with you...they will attempt to. About the 5th time of the same old thing...they will give up, and pester you only once in a while.


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  16. #91
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    TBG,

    Agreed, I think you've stated what I was trying to.

    My default mode is "Ambassador". When confronted by Gestapo tactics, I shift gears into "Civil Liberties Violatee". Not everyone is interested in, or capable of being an ambassador. I can understand that. I think the folks that opt to be ambassadors are better for the cause, but I don't think any less of those who prefer to be left alone. To each his own.

    On a separate note, I might come out to check out some softball on Fridays, the wife has other activities that night, so the boys and I are on our own for dinner + activity, and this sounds like something to do.

    I almost asked how to spot you, but then I realized you are likely to be the only other gun toting "Ambassador" present. That should make it easier.
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  17. #92
    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Excellent Recommendations

    Citizen, an "old hand" here on OCDO, offers his experience and insight in a series of posts (begin at post #5) about how to handle in a non-aggressive fashion, unwanted LEO encounters. Included are a breakdown of LE tactics and reasons for them, as well as what responses from you will work best.

    Five minutes of your time may change what and how you respond next time.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-like-feedback
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
    My default mode is "Ambassador". When confronted by Gestapo tactics, I shift gears into "Civil Liberties Violatee".
    Same here.

    I default to believing that the cops will be reasonable and friendly, just making sure that there is no problem. This has paid off well over the years, only ONCE having any serious issue over my OC (and that one got the cops slapped pretty seriously by their superiors, so it's still a win).

    I've lost track of the number of times some hoplophobe went away, astonished and with nose out of joint because I didn't get busted. I also can't count the number of times that some other observer has opened a dialogue to find out more about OC and civil rights.

  19. #94
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    Well if anyone wants to come out there will be a double header on Tuesday since Fridays game was rained out. Looks like we play the same team with the detective in the 2nd game. Games are Tuesdays and Fridays at 6pm at Morrell park in Henderson. It could change though and I will update on Monday. I'm looking forward to see how they react this time. If the police are called on me again I will certainly be taking action.

  20. #95
    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    Same here.

    I default to believing that the cops will be reasonable and friendly, just making sure that there is no problem. This has paid off well over the years, only ONCE having any serious issue over my OC (and that one got the cops slapped pretty seriously by their superiors, so it's still a win).

    I've lost track of the number of times some hoplophobe went away, astonished and with nose out of joint because I didn't get busted. I also can't count the number of times that some other observer has opened a dialogue to find out more about OC and civil rights.
    +1 on this.

    I read the OP and thought, wow what a great encounter! And then I kept reading and found the same thing happen as seems to happen so much on this forum.

    I love it, but I tend to visit less because it just seems to get so negative sometimes.

    I for one would not have wanted to be the guy that decided to be a complete butt when the officers approached and get into a negative interaction with him in front of 50 people. I know some of you will say any interaction is a negative one and that is your prerogative, but encounters do happen and I believe we should make the best of them.

    Some people just are not good with PR...I know...but my land if you approach an encounter automatically with a negative attitude you are just increasing the odds that it is going to BE negative - that goes for anybody you encounter not just LEO's...

    Anyway...I know that folks that hold my opinion will keep holding it and folks that disagree will continue to disagree..I have learned that debates rarely end with either side switching view points, so I will end with just congratulating the OP on open carrying and doing a great job of representing the movement to a whole lot of folks!

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