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Thread: Don't go here...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Don't go here...

    I went shopping/browsing yesterday for some "adult" fun at Cirilla's of Waterford. As I was walking in I noticed a no weapons sign on the door. (I was not carrying) I went in and browsed for a bit, then decided to go talk to the clerk. I asked her about the sign and she replied, "we just don't want weapons in here". I said, "what about people who carry lawfully or have a cpl"? She said, "it's for everbody, we just don't want weapons in here". I was going to ask her the logic of that thought as to how it would apply to someone coming in to rob the place, but I just smiled and said, "ok". There was no point in discussing it further. She asked if I was looking for something in particular, and I said, "no thanks, have a good day", and turned around and left.

    Some people will always be blind to the truth and will run with the flock. I hope that sign works for them.

  2. #2
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman View Post
    I was going to ask her the logic of that thought as to how it would apply to someone coming in to rob the place, but I just smiled and said, "ok". There was no point in discussing it further.
    True, it's fruitless to appeal to an anti-gunner's sense of logic, as they congenitally lack it. But another route, with an anti-gun business owner/manager, is appealing to their aversion to potential lawsuits.

    Point out that their "no gun" rule has created in your mind an expectation that they will enforce it and you won't be injured by a gun in their shop. If you do get injured or "traumatized" by someone with a gun, they failed in enforcing their "no gun" rule and you will sue them for that failure. Then ask, "That's all that rule will potentially get you, so is that what you want?"
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  3. #3
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    True, it's fruitless to appeal to an anti-gunner's sense of logic, as they congenitally lack it. But another route, with an anti-gun business owner/manager, is appealing to their aversion to potential lawsuits.

    Point out that their "no gun" rule has created in your mind an expectation that they will enforce it and you won't be injured by a gun in their shop. If you do get injured or "traumatized" by someone with a gun, they failed in enforcing their "no gun" rule and you will sue them for that failure. Then ask, "That's all that rule will potentially get you, so is that what you want?"
    You could just tell that she felt safer with that sign on the door. That it really was going to do some good.

  4. #4
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Seems like Cirillas wouldnt mind if people walked around half cocked in their store.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    Seems like Cirillas wouldnt mind if people walked around half cocked in their store.
    Insert: holster shopping, gun lube, bluing, stiff draw, speed of draw, load carried etc.... jokes here

    Well done WC. +1
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman View Post
    She said, "it's for everbody, we just don't want weapons in here".
    Do they make on-duty LEOs disarm?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Do they make on-duty LEOs disarm?
    I would have a problem with on-duty LEO rubber dong shopping. Dont they have some OCers to harass?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I would have a problem with on-duty LEO rubber dong shopping. Dont they have some OCers to harass?
    Rubber dongs, the new nightstick! Thanks WilDChilD, I needed a good laugh.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Snickers.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Snickers.
    I don't think they sell candy there, or is that the name for your favorite toy?

    Seriously there are any number of legit reasons an on-duty LEO would be there: shoplifter, robbery attempt, heart attack, rapid onset priapism.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Is the irony lost on everyone else but myself that an unarmed man is complaining about a no guns sign?
    Sorry, but I don't carry 100% of the time, everywhere I go. But because it is something I believe in, I will not support any business with a sign like that in their window.

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    I personally know someone who worked in one of those type of stores in that area with a similar sign. Needless to say her and 2 other employees were robbed at gun point one night right before close....

    Man those signs sure do work....

  13. #13
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Is the irony lost on everyone else but myself that an unarmed man is complaining about a no guns sign?
    Perhaps it's not so much the irony is lost as the irony isn't there. A 2A supporter who happens to not be armed at the time should be expected to complain as readily as any other 2A supporter.

    Now, a gun-control supporter complaining about a no guns sign . . . that would be irony.

    Clear?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Well, I'm just wondering, if you didn't feel the NEED to carry a firearm there, then why would you have a problem with management agreeing with you that there was no need for a firearm there?
    You are attempting to make incongruent statements appear the same. From your above statement:

    The poster said, "*I* didn't feel the need to carry a firearm there." (Emphasized for clarity.)

    The management said, "There is no need for a firearm there."

    These are not the same statements, therefore management is not "agreeing" with the poster. If management were in agreement with the poster they would say, "*You* don't feel the need to carry a firearm there." (Emphasized for clarity.)

    Therefore, your attempt at passing off something the poster said as contradictory fails.

    It is quite consistent to say "*I* don't feel the need to carry", yet object to a store's management dictating to everyone "There is no need to carry."

    Some people may not feel the personal need to carry at any given time or any given place, yet they don't want that option taken away from others who may feel otherwise.

    Get it?
    Last edited by DanM; 04-12-2012 at 11:23 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Oh.... Outdoorsman wants to determine for himself where the "no criminals" zones are instead of someone else telling him where the "no criminals" zones are? I see....
    You understand the problem is someone else determining when a fella gets to exercise his rights, rather than himself?

    Here's a good article along those lines: http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/04/1...-someone-else/

    Here's an excerpt:

    It takes a stupendous degree of arrogance – arrogance on a Louis XVII scale – to assert that one has any business making such a call on behalf of someone else – who is not also a minor child. Are we not grown adults fully capable of weighing costs vs. benefits, pros vs. cons? What sort of person would interpose himself between another adult and his right as an adult to perform such calculations for himself? I personally prefer not to infantilize my fellow man – just on principle – much less take on the moral responsibility for events that may happen to him as a result of some decision made by me. I’d need years of therapy if, for example, I was the person responsible for imposing the air bag mandate and discovered later on that some nice old lady (several, actually) had been killed by one of the things – or had her retina detached. The fact that the bags “saved” other lives is beside the point. None of these lives are mine to play with. -Eric Peters (bold emphasis add by Citizen)
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2012 at 12:58 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Oh.... Outdoorsman wants to determine for himself where the "no criminals" zones are instead of someone else telling him where the "no criminals" zones are? I see....
    Well, I'm not sure I've seen him say the reason he was unarmed was because he determined an area to be a "no criminal" zone. But even if that were true:

    This is America. People are mostly free to make most determinations for themselves on their own, even if they are completely wrong. But we frown on people making unsolicited and unjustified determinations for other mentally competent adults.

    Outdoorsman may be wrong or he may be right, and he may govern himself all he wants to by those determinations or no determinations at all. But he is completely correct, and it is not contradictory, to also say, "My personal determinations are my own, but no one including me should tell others what their determinations should or should not be."

    This is America. What country are you posting from?
    Last edited by DanM; 04-13-2012 at 08:25 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  17. #17
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    It doesnt always work that way, you dont always have a choice.

  18. #18
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    How about we put it this way:
    Thanks for clarifying what you're saying. My responses to your clarification may be similar or different to my prior responses to the extent your clarification is similar or different to what you said before.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
    I express disagreement with outdoorsman's choice to go unarmed because criminals can show up at any place and at any time. I seem to meet resistance, "That's his choice! Leave him alone!"
    I agree with you, generally, that it is unwise to go unarmed if one may exercise the choice to be armed. You will get no resistance from me if your point is confined to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
    Outdoorsman expresses his disagreement with the private property owner's decision to exercise his/her right to limit what will be on his/her private property and he gets support, "Yeah, you tell them! Don't go there!"
    I agree with Outdoorsman. I won't patronize a place that exercises it's "right" to take away mine, within the confines of that place.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
    The store by posting a no guns sign isn't infringing upon anyone's rights.
    It is an infringement, but one that a customer accepts by accepting to do business with the store. An accepted infringement is an infringement nonetheless, thus claiming a "no gun" rule is not an infringement is incorrect. You are correct, in your follow-on statement, that it is one that can be avoided, but what is it that can be avoided? The *infringement* that a "no gun" rule or sign *is*.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
    Nobody is forcing anyone to disarm and shop there. Just go somewhere else if you don't like it.
    You are correct. Which is Outdoorsman's point: don't go there.
    Last edited by DanM; 04-13-2012 at 09:52 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    The OP will just have to buy his adult toys and clothes on the Internet or another shop. I hear the Lions Den in Perry, MI is OC/gun friendly...?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Here's the situation... I simply did not feel the need to arm myself at that time. If something happened there and I wasn't armed, then those are the consequences I would have had to deal with. As far as the sign in the window, they have every right to put it there. I simply won't go back because I do not support businesses that take away my option of carrying there, open or concealed. The point is, I don't carry everywhere I go. I know crime can happen anywhere, but there are times I simply do not arm myself for one reason or another. That is my own personal choice. But there are times when my gun does not leave my side. Again, my personal choice.

    I don't expect everyone to act and feel as I do. We are free men (and women) and have the ability to make up our own minds.

    There, now I'm off my soap box!

  21. #21
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    Well, the OP was not carrying as he had no need to carry any compensation. He obviously feels that his manly equipment is large enough to defend himself with. My hat's off to you!

  22. #22
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Well, the OP was not carrying as he had no need to carry any compensation. He obviously feels that his manly equipment is large enough to defend himself with. My hat's off to you!
    Did I hear something about an Anaconda???

  23. #23
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Now wait just a minute.... you do realize the OP was going into an adult TOY store, right?
    I am an adult ya know.

  24. #24
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    If I put up a No Fireams sign or a No Trespassing sign at the entrance to the property of my residence, is that an infringement? What rights of yours am I infringing upon to ban you and/or your guns from my property?
    Careful, we're not talking about bans on people, we're talking specifically about bans on bearing arms. What right is infringed upon with a ban on exercising the right to bear arms? The right to bear arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Why is a store owner any different? Are you responsible for the rent on the building? Are you responsible for the utility payments on the building? What exactly is your claim to a right to be present in the store and/or your right to carry a gun into that store?
    You seem to be confusing the calling out of these infringements as a statement that we claim a right to be on someone's property. Not so, and you should read more carefully. We are simply calling out the infringements. Infringement = unjustified ban or restriction. A store that has an unjustified ban or restriction on the right to bear arms, by definition, is infringing on the right to bear arms in its confines. That's not an opinion, it just is what it is. Private property owners have the superseding right, generally, to infringe on the right to bear arms with a "no guns" rule. But it is an infringement nonetheless, according to pure, objective definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Since you don't have a right to even be in the store, how can you claim that any of your rights are infringed upon?
    Just because you don't have a right to be in the store doesn't mean you can't claim your rights are infringed upon, in the store. It's just that some infringements by the owner are permissible and some are not. For example, infringements on bearing arms and free speech by a private property owner are generally permissible. "No guns" and "No foul language" rules are infringements that are legally permissible. But they are infringements nonetheless. However, let's say you enter a store first thing in the morning, browse, find nothing you want to buy, go to exit, and find the doors locked. An employee points to a sign you didn't see: "Customers may not exit the store until making a purchase or at the end of the business day, whichever comes first". You exclaim, "Look you are infringing on my right to not be deprived of liberty except through due process of law!"

    The employee retorts, "Hey, bud, I read what you wrote in a forum one time. Since you don't have a right to even be in the store, how can you claim that any of your rights are being infringed upon?"

    You really can't argue against your very own words, can you?

    Hope this serves to clarify the depth of error in your argument.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  25. #25
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    If its the only store of its kind in your area, then you have no choice.

    Its like the BS about not having a right to drive. That is a problem that also needs to be corrected.

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