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Thread: Virginia Tech publishes final 'Weapons on Campus' regulation

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Virginia Tech publishes final 'Weapons on Campus' regulation

    My lastest article. Please read and share if you like it.
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    In the April 9, 2012 edition of the Virginia Register, the final Virginia Tech ‘Weapons on Campus’ regulation was published and now has the force and effect of law.


    The regulation, which is codified at 8VAC105-20-10 through 8VAC105-20-40, addresses the “carrying, maintaining, or storing” of both “firearms” and “weapons.”


    Excerpt ... read more

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    I am interested to see if VCDL or other organizations will challenge the concept that universities and colleges were ever given the authority to prohibit firearms to begin with. Control of firearms do not seem to be a consideration of the operations of a university that would be within the scope of the school's regulatory grant of authority.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    What right is it theirs to publish a ban? we the people pay to go there. So unfair.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Nobody has ever been able to explain to me how this exemption from the long process of establishing these regulations:

    6. Educational institutions operated by the Commonwealth, provided that, with respect to § 2.2-4031, such educational institutions shall be exempt from the publication requirements only with respect to regulations that pertain to (i) their academic affairs, (ii) the selection, tenure, promotion and disciplining of faculty and employees, (iii) the selection of students, and (iv) rules of conduct and disciplining of students.

    applies to an educational institution which is making regulations that specifically address the behavior of ordinary citizens, unaffiliated with the institution in any way.

    This is the short term answer, all these new regulations were instituted in violation of the rules, and should be rendered null and void.

    Please, someone tell me what I am missing!

    TFred

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Good thing they outlawed guns. So this means no more shootings on campus, I know the criminals will follow your law and not bring guns on campus.

    Wait criminals don't care about the law, they will bring guns on and shoot people if they want. They only thing this will do is give them more time to kill since nobody can fight back.

    I love the fact they are enabling criminals, if your child, borther, sister, or friend is killed you can thank the people that pushed this through.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This simply cannot be allowed to stand. It's beyond ridiculous.

    Here is the wording of the regulation pertaining to visitors:

    Any visitor or other third party attending a sporting, entertainment, or
    educational event or visiting an academic or administrative office building,
    dining facility, or residence hall is prohibited from carrying, maintaining, or
    storing a firearm or weapon on any university facility, even if the owner has a
    valid permit. This prohibition also applies to all events on campus where
    people congregate in any public or outdoor areas.


    This says to me that if I want to travel across the state to come to a VT football game, I would not even be allowed to store my self-defensive firearm in my car while parked on campus. So all the VT Alumni who come to football games but want to bring a gun on the trip are now going to be in violation of the law.

    But if I am not attending a football game, or visiting any of the other defined events or places, I'm free to open carry about the campus nearly at will.

    Unbelievable. No competent judge would find this to be a reasonable regulation.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This simply cannot be allowed to stand. It's beyond ridiculous.

    Here is the wording of the regulation pertaining to visitors:

    Any visitor or other third party attending a sporting, entertainment, or
    educational event or visiting an academic or administrative office building,
    dining facility, or residence hall is prohibited from carrying, maintaining, or
    storing a firearm or weapon on any university facility, even if the owner has a
    valid permit. This prohibition also applies to all events on campus where
    people congregate in any public or outdoor areas.


    This says to me that if I want to travel across the state to come to a VT football game, I would not even be allowed to store my self-defensive firearm in my car while parked on campus. So all the VT Alumni who come to football games but want to bring a gun on the trip are now going to be in violation of the law.

    But if I am not attending a football game, or visiting any of the other defined events or places, I'm free to open carry about the campus nearly at will.

    Unbelievable. No competent judge would find this to be a reasonable regulation.

    TFred
    Might be time for you to ask your representative for an AG opinion TFred. He's probably as likely to do it as anyone.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    So if I read this
    Weapons are defined in the same section as:
    … any instrument of combat, or any object not designed as an instrument of combat but carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury. Examples include but are not limited to (i) firearms; (ii) knives with fixed blades or pocket knives with blades longer than four inches; (iii) razors or metal knuckles; (iv) blackjacks, foils, or hatchets; (v) bows and arrows; (vi) nun chahkas; (vii) stun weapons; or (viii) any explosive or incendiary device. Stun weapon is defined as any device that emits a momentary or pulsed output that is electrical, audible, optical, or electromagnetic in nature and that is designed to temporarily incapacitate a person.
    correctly, the mere carrying of my flashlight that has a strobe function is a violation of the no-weapons clause.

    Since the definition of "weapons" lists examples, I am presuming that anything so listed is de facto "carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury." Anybody care to refute that?

    The people that wrote this seem to be from one of the classes of induhviduals (thanks, Dilbert) who seem incapable of understanding even the simplest of consequences of what they write.

    ad infinitum.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member michaelm_ski's Avatar
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    Weapons on Campus

    Maybe the students need to do a peaceful protest or a petition and keep at it , If that doesn't work than maybe go to a different school I know if you hit them in the bank book it really hurts and don't be afraid to contact you local news media . Best of luck

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelm_ski View Post
    Maybe the students need to do a peaceful protest or a petition and keep at it , If that doesn't work than maybe go to a different school I know if you hit them in the bank book it really hurts and don't be afraid to contact you local news media . Best of luck

    Sadly I don't think theres enough 2A supportors there to make a difference?
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I plan to drop a letter in the mail tomorrow, asking the Registrar of Virginia to explain her justification for allowing VT to skip the publication requirements for this regulation.

    I wish I could say I expected to receive a reply. Hmm, I think I will cc my Delegate as well.

    TFred

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    I think it may be mighty effective to deter fans from attending games if they are somehow made aware of just how restrictive and harsh these regulations are. A solid PR campaign showing unsuspecting fans getting hauled of to jail for a pistol in the car, possession of a mere pocketknife or can of pepper spray while on campus property may be the right idea. For heaven's sake you can leave a pistol in the car when attending high school football games, and may lawfully keep a knife or spray with you depending on the locality, but those will get you jail time at Virginia Tech and several of these other universities.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-11-2012 at 10:46 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So if I read this

    correctly, the mere carrying of my flashlight that has a strobe function is a violation of the no-weapons clause.

    Since the definition of "weapons" lists examples, I am presuming that anything so listed is de facto "carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury." Anybody care to refute that?

    The people that wrote this seem to be from one of the classes of induhviduals (thanks, Dilbert) who seem incapable of understanding even the simplest of consequences of what they write.

    ad infinitum.

    stay safe.

    Every art student at VT will be in violation of this this regulation within the first two weeks of school. An x-acto knife is a "fixed blade". A skiving, paring, or edging knife (for leatherwork or bookbinding) is a "fixed blade". And we won't even talk about those wires with wood handles on the ends that you use to cut a ceramic pot from the bat on a throwing wheel (could be used as a garrotte).

    My Grad School studio was a veritable arsenal under this new VT regulation. I had "explosives" and "incidearies" (turpentine, kerosene, mineral spirits, methy AND ethyl alcohol), "fixed blades" (see above), and a hand-made Mogol-style wooden arrow with a SHARP hand-forged iron flathead on it AND a really nice medieval rapier (NOT a repro--a REAL 1580's era piece) hanging on the wall...

    The next person who gets mugged by an armed thug on campus needs to sue the "F" out of VT's administration for reckless endangerment, civil rights violations, and "conspiring to establish a hostile educational environment".
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-11-2012 at 11:20 PM.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'm in full-blown scour mode right now...

    Can anyone find me the cite to the Code of Virginia or VAC that says what the general penalty for violating a VAC is?

    I thought we had determined it to be a misdemeanor, unless the penalty were defined in an individual VAC itself.

    Thanks!

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I'm in full-blown scour mode right now...

    Can anyone find me the cite to the Code of Virginia or VAC that says what the general penalty for violating a VAC is?

    I thought we had determined it to be a misdemeanor, unless the penalty were defined in an individual VAC itself.

    Thanks!

    TFred
    I've found spot cites that indicate it for specific violations TFred, but nothing that covers everything.
    I think Skidmark came up with one once, but can't find it anymore.

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    TFred I'm just thinking out loud here, so anyone feel free to correct my line of thought. The boards of these universities have been given wide lattitude to establish regulations for the operation of the people's universities and colleges. If one is found to be in violation of one of their regulations for which there is no specific punishment and they have been asked to leave or cease their prohibited activity, but refuse, the person is then remaining on the property of another (agency in this case) after having been forbidden to do so either orally, in writing, or by signs and is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor in accordance with the requirements of 18.2-119. One need not look anywhere else, except to see whether another additional specific punishment is in order for the violation of said regulation.

    If these boards do not have the authority to draft these regulations, then it would be up to the General Assembly to set out in state law prohibitions of the same, otherwise trespassing is not applicable. The trick is to establish that the boards do not have have the authority to ban firearms on campus premises since it does not specifically deal with the general education of, or the disciplining of the students.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-13-2012 at 09:26 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    jmelvin -

    Tat's what we have been saying for years. The problem is getting the courts to agree that the wording in the Code is actually limiting.

    Seems the courts can reach that holding in other cases but when it comes to The Chirrins and what is good for them, they have tunnel vision. But then, what can you expect when one's (collective) head is so deep in a tunnel to begin with?

    What we need is a decent test case with a good defense attorney. Anybody want to volunteer?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Yeah I knew that, I was just putting the pieces together "out loud" to demonstrate the conclusion. You're right, we need a good test case. I'd donate to it.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-13-2012 at 10:29 AM.

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    Regular Member Wolverine's Avatar
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    Wow...non-elected officials able to legislate and make law. This is very scary. From this point forward I will not financially support any endowment of any of the states schools and will not attend any on campus events or sporting events. My dollars are going to do the voting here. If VCDL desides to do something, I will contribute.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    --snip--

    The next person who gets mugged by an armed thug on campus needs to sue the "F" out of VT's administration for reckless endangerment, civil rights violations, and "conspiring to establish a hostile educational environment".
    O' be still, my beating heart.

    Can there be found cause to prosecute the key players in the VT administration individually for their contribution to the "No Guns on Campus" policy, which we generally acknowledge contributed mightily to the environment that made (makes) VT a free fire zone? I'm imagining a decision of "guilty before the fact" in the murder of 32 students and staff.

    I understand that it is not likely - after all, we do not live in a perfect world
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Hmm.... do the members of the board enjoy the "good faith" immunity generally afforded Virginia Government entities? I don't think so based on the recent civil case. Negligent /fill in blank/? Can we as citizens of the state demonstrate standing on the issue BEFORE someone gets hurt?

    Federal Standard for Standing taken from Lectlaw - I doubt Virginia is much different

    STANDING
    The legal right to initiate a lawsuit. To do so, a person must be sufficiently affected by the matter at hand, and there must be a case or controversy that can be resolved by legal action.There are three requirements for Article III standing: (1) injury in fact, which means an invasion of a legally protected interest that is (a) concrete and particularized, and (b) actual or imminent, not conjectural or hypothetical; (2) a causal relationship between the injury and the challenged conduct, which means that the injury fairly can be traced to the challenged action of the defendant, and has not resulted from the independent action of some third party not before the court; and (3) a likelihood that the injury will be redressed by a favorable decision, which means that the prospect of obtaining relief from the injury as a result of a favorable ruling is not too speculative. Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife, 112 S. Ct. 2130, 2136 (1992) (Lujan). The party invoking federal jurisdiction bears the burden of establishing each of these elements. Id.

    Test B might be arguable based on the history of shootings at schools across the country. IANAL but it seems reasonable to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    Sadly I don't think theres enough 2A supportors there to make a difference?
    I don't think that any number of students, be it 50 or 5,000, could get the unelected Board of Visitors to remove the regulations. They are a bunch of elitists who believe that they have a god-like ability to know what's best for all of us ignorant, irresponsible, helpless, and drunk "kids," and they will never admit that they were/are wrong by undoing what they did. In fact, we have very clearly seen them do the exact opposite. Rather than admit that their policy utterly failed in the worst way imaginable (April 16th) and change it accordingly, they have now doubled-down on the same useless mentality. Change will only come once we have a state government and governor with the stones to say that these BoVs are wrong.

    Incidentally, from my experiences, I think that 2A support at colleges (at least at Tech) is actually higher than you might think. Among my personal group of close friends here, support is very high, and several regularly carry. Even among a random sampling of students, I've found plenty who readily admit to supporting allowing carry on campus. The vast majority of follow students that I've interacted with tend to have no real opinion on the matter or might have a gut reaction against campus carry. However, when these mostly un-opinionated students are questioned about the actual effectiveness of gun bans or the actual "danger" of CHP holders, they very frequently admit bans don't work and CHP holders don't really pose any threat. I think that the number of students who are actually, really anti-gun is a very small minority.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    What we need is a decent test case with a good defense attorney. Anybody want to volunteer?

    stay safe.
    Now where could we find someone with experience in court proceedings concerning firearms with an extremely knowlegeable and proficient attorney?

    .....I would think, out of anyone with experience, you'd rank closer to the top than many.

    Just an innocent observation, skid.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    I wonder....

    If the Virginia Tech Kendo Club and Fencing Club know they have been outlawed by this heavy handed stupidity. Most of the other martial arts organizations are in violation too. Yet another side to the idiocy.
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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So if I read this

    correctly, the mere carrying of my flashlight that has a strobe function is a violation of the no-weapons clause.

    Since the definition of "weapons" lists examples, I am presuming that anything so listed is de facto "carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury." Anybody care to refute that?

    The people that wrote this seem to be from one of the classes of induhviduals (thanks, Dilbert) who seem incapable of understanding even the simplest of consequences of what they write.

    ad infinitum.

    stay safe.
    I bet that new flashlight "The torch" is a weapon, it burns objects, melts plastic with over 4100 lumens.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-13-2012 at 08:08 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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