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Thread: Confused on a specific National Park (Shenandoah)

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    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Confused on a specific National Park (Shenandoah)

    Ok so I've been reading up on open carry at Shenandoah National Park.

    On their website it states...
    http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/VA/index.htm

    "The law governing possession of firearms inside a national park changed on February 22, 2010.
    Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws.

    Please remember that federal law prohibits firearms in certain park facilities and buildings. These places are marked with signs at public entrances."


    Does anyone know where the actual law can be located??? Or rather, what law allows this?
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

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    found an article that states you are now allowed to carry in state parks

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
    Ok so I've been reading up on open carry at Shenandoah National Park.

    On their website it states...
    http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/VA/index.htm

    "The law governing possession of firearms inside a national park changed on February 22, 2010.
    Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws.

    Please remember that federal law prohibits firearms in certain park facilities and buildings. These places are marked with signs at public entrances."


    Does anyone know where the actual law can be located??? Or rather, what law allows this?
    i found this article. Also I heard that McDonnell now allows you to carry in the state forest as well.


    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/vir...celebrate.html

    Posted at 3:50 PM ET, 01/19/2011
    McDonnell quietly issues directive allowing open carry of firearms in state parks
    By Fred Kunkle

    Gun rights advocates celebrated Wednesday--and supporters of gun control grieved--over news that Gov. Robert F. McDonnell has quietly lifted the ban against people carrying firearms openly in state parks.

    Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, sent an e-mail blast to fellow gun-rights supporters with news that as of Tuesday people could carry openly. Gun owners with concealed weapons permits had the right to carry in Virginia State Parks for some time, but never openly, he said.

    In a letter dated Jan. 14, McDonnell (R) directed the Department of Conservation & Recreation to cease enforcing regulations prohibiting open carry. The governor, referring to an opinion he had formulated as attorney general in September 2008 at the request of then-Sen. Kenneth Cuccinelli (R), said the agency had exceeded its statutory authority in banning people from carrying firearms openly.

    Fireworks are still prohibited in state parks, and alcohol is banned except in "private areas" such as cabins or campsites, according to the agency's Web site. There was no mention of guns on the site.

    "These regulations once finally approved would simply allow law abiding Virginians who legally own a firearm to exercise the same rights in a Virginia state forest or state park that they already possess while elsewhere in the Commonwealth," said J. Tucker Martin, a spokesman for the governor. Martin said the governor has also given initial approval to a proposed regulatory change allowing concealed carry and open carry in state forests. Those proposed regulations are in the process of going to the public comment stage, he said.

    Gun-control advocates were not pleased at the new policy or the way McDonnell carried it out.
    "I think he tried to sneak it by," said Andy Goddard, who heads the Virginia Center for Public Safety. His son, Colin Goddard, survived gunshot wounds during the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007.

    "I'm not surprised at what Gov. McDonnell's done, because he's in the back pocket of the NRA,' said Lori Haas, whose daughter also survived the attack. "But I think to do this without any sort of public knowledge or public comment is contrary to some of his campaign statements on transparency."

    She also predicted that the move will have a chilling effect on the tourism business.

    "Can you imagine the family with young children who look over to the campsite next door where the person is openly carrying an AR-15?" she said.

    Senate Majority Leader Richard L. Saslaw shrugged.

    "I'm not surprised--I'm only surprised it took him a whole year," Saslaw said, noting that President Obama has backed off gun control as an issue. Last year, the federal government lifted restrictions on carrying firearms in national parks.
    "Do I agree? No," Saslaw said. "But it's hard to climb all over him when Obama's done the same thing at the federal level."

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
    Ok so I've been reading up on open carry at Shenandoah National Park.

    On their website it states...
    http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/VA/index.htm

    "The law governing possession of firearms inside a national park changed on February 22, 2010.
    Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws.

    Please remember that federal law prohibits firearms in certain park facilities and buildings. These places are marked with signs at public entrances."


    Does anyone know where the actual law can be located??? Or rather, what law allows this?
    The law allowing carry of firearms was signed by Obama as part of the The credit card holders' bill of rights, which includes an amendment allowing firearms at the nation's National Parks and wildlife refuges. IIRC the Republicans tacked it onto this bill the Dems wanted badly.
    Last edited by Wolf_shadow; 04-13-2012 at 04:15 PM.

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    Actually I believe it was a combined Democrat and Republican effort to stick it onto a bill that the president wanted. Specifically I believe it was Max Baucus, Democrat senator from Montana. I'm not sure who, if anyone came up with it on the Republican side.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
    --snip--
    Please remember that federal law prohibits firearms in certain park facilities and buildings. These places are marked with signs at public entrances."
    "Facilities and buildings" refers to structures where park employees are regularly assigned to work - these must be conspicuously posted when guns are not allowed inside..
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Ok. Thanks y'all. I was wanting to carry in the park for awhile. Had a bear run-in plus I tend to stay out there solo.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Has anyone ever figured out if restrooms fall under the ban? I don't frequent NPs, don't know if there out "outbuilding" restrooms or if they are contained within prohibited buildings.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Dpends on the restroom. The ones in the campgrounds are not marked, but ones located inside buildings Where a federal employee works (i.e visitor center) will be a no go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
    Ok so I've been reading up on open carry at Shenandoah National Park.

    On their website it states...
    http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/VA/index.htm

    "The law governing possession of firearms inside a national park changed on February 22, 2010.
    Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws.

    Please remember that federal law prohibits firearms in certain park facilities and buildings. These places are marked with signs at public entrances."


    Does anyone know where the actual law can be located??? Or rather, what law allows this?
    Yes you can OC a loaded firearm in the NP. Where the law gets complicated is carrying in the national forest. The Appalachain Trail is adminstried by the NPS yet it runs through the NF. Ive spoken with several national park rangers that say Ocing on the A.T. is legal now. Shenadoah park is safe for OCers

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    Yes you can OC a loaded firearm in the NP. --snip--
    The rule is that NPS allows carry in national parks consistent with the laws of the state in which the national parks is situated - that is not to say that LOC is OK in all national parks.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    Yes you can OC a loaded firearm in the NP. Where the law gets complicated is carrying in the national forest. The Appalachain Trail is adminstried by the NPS yet it runs through the NF. Ive spoken with several national park rangers that say Ocing on the A.T. is legal now. Shenadoah park is safe for OCers
    I posted pictures of the required signs and a copy of the internal memo sent to each Ranger Station, but I think Mike made me mad about something and I deleted them from the photo album...I'll look some more.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I posted pictures of the required signs and a copy of the internal memo sent to each Ranger Station, but I think Mike made me mad about something and I deleted them from the photo album...I'll look some more.
    I knew I had to have copies somewhere






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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I posted pictures of the required signs and a copy of the internal memo sent to each Ranger Station, but I think Mike made me mad about something and I deleted them from the photo album...I'll look some more.
    Did any of the pictures show Zeus lifting his leg on the sign?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Did any of the pictures show Zeus lifting his leg on the sign?
    No...I believe that was McDonnell's campaign promise to implement State Park carry....right away

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Did any of the pictures show Zeus lifting his leg on the sign?
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No...I believe that was McDonnell's campaign promise to implement State Park carry....right away
    Watch your shoe, I think you just stepped in it

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's only a matter of time

    As noted in Peter Nap's picture of the sign on the door, it is 18 USC 930(a) that supposedly declares the otherwise lawful carry of a firearm off limits inside a federal facility.

    It's my opinion that we already have enough precedence from the SCOTUS to determine that "self defense" is well within an "otherwise lawful purpose," but as always, it's going to take that one case to settle for sure. With any luck the current case on the post office carry in Colorado will tip the tide.

    See text of the law below, including section (d) which is where we are covered.

    BTW: Further proof: Paragraph (e) is what (1) sets the higher penalty for courtrooms, and (2) exempts LEOs, etc from the same. It is important to note for that exemption they specifically leave out what was clearly intended to be "the rest of us" by specifically leaving out exemption #(d.3). Sounds confusing, just take a look below and you will see what I mean.

    TFred


    18 USC 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    (e)

    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
    Last edited by TFred; 04-16-2012 at 10:11 PM. Reason: ETA: Link to Colorado case

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Necro bump for those so inclined to hike the Ap Trail, such as myself I'll be hiking McAfee's Knob in the coming weeks and will be OCing my bear "deterrent."

    If anyone in Roanoke or surrounding areas ever wanted to join me, just let me know! I miss the stretch of AT in the NRV. Lived there for 2 years and loved it. Shame there's not much money to be made outside of the railroad, else I might still reside.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Necro bump for those so inclined to hike the Ap Trail, such as myself I'll be hiking McAfee's Knob in the coming weeks and will be OCing my bear "deterrent."

    If anyone in Roanoke or surrounding areas ever wanted to join me, just let me know! I miss the stretch of AT in the NRV. Lived there for 2 years and loved it. Shame there's not much money to be made outside of the railroad, else I might still reside.

    You do not "reside?" Presume that you "stays" somewhere then.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    [/B]
    You do not "reside?" Presume that you "stays" somewhere then.
    I do not currently reside in the NRV, no. I used to!

    Right now I's stays in Henrico County.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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