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Thread: Carrying on school grounds (Not picking up or dropping off my daughter)

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Carrying on school grounds (Not picking up or dropping off my daughter)

    I recently had a question as to my following the letter of the law 9.41.280

    I attend my daughters tennis matches on campus of a public high school. In the past I have put my firearm in the glove box, locked the vehicle and left to watch. However, I now have a convertible Jeep and can sit in the Jeep with the top off and watch the match, as the Jeep sits up high enough. Therein lies the question. Am I following the letter of .280 if I leave the firearm on my person (OC) while sitting in the seat of the Jeep without the top on the vehicle?

    RCW 9.41.280

    Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.
    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;
    <snip>
    (2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.
    <snip>
    3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:
    <snip>
    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    <snip>
    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or
    <snip>
    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.
    The primary question, is my firearm 'secured' in my topless (Jeep girls like it topless and dirty) Jeep while I sit there in plain view?
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    Regular Member waterfowl woody's Avatar
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    sounds to me it falls under picking up and dropping off. with the top off it is still your car and sounds like you never left your car. what I am curious about, and maybe what you were getting at, is there a time limit of sitting and waiting for pick up. You dropped her off, but does it say you have to leave till she is ready?

    gosh this is a good one!

    I'm gonna go with it falls under dropping off and picking up and since you don't leave your car. top down or not

    Now if you take the doors off and someone see's your armed I'd bet you would have visitors, but still don't think its violating the law.

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I recently had a question as to my following the letter of the law 9.41.280

    I attend my daughters tennis matches on campus of a public high school. In the past I have put my firearm in the glove box, locked the vehicle and left to watch. However, I now have a convertible Jeep and can sit in the Jeep with the top off and watch the match, as the Jeep sits up high enough. Therein lies the question. Am I following the letter of .280 if I leave the firearm on my person (OC) while sitting in the seat of the Jeep without the top on the vehicle?



    The primary question, is my firearm 'secured' in my topless (Jeep girls like it topless and dirty) Jeep while I sit there in plain view?
    The question that would need to be resolved is whether the firearm would be considered "secured" when it is being carried on your person (but not duct taped to your forehead). Secured is not defined in 9.41.010 or in any other relevant way in the RCWs so I can't predict the answer to the question. I don't think top on or off matters; as long as you are in the vehicle it is attended (in the ordinary sense of the word since attended isn't defined in 9.41 or in Title 46, the Motor Vehicle code). I think your vehicle could even be regarded as "attended" if you had the hood up checking the oil or were changing a flat tire but you have to be inside for the firearm to be "within" the vehicle.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    My daughter drives herself to and from school. Therefore, these instances do not fall under the drop off/pick up rule.

    I agree Llammo, it seems to fall under what the definition of 'secure' means. To me and many others it is secured in my holster while on my person regardless of where I might be at the time. Surely for LEO and armed security it is secured while in their holster.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Personally, I feel as if your covered by an exception by (e) and/or (f).

    1) I think that the firearm is secured to your person which is within your vehicle satisfying (f), of course this might be subjective as to what secured is.
    2) You are waiting to pick-up your student from a function at the school, less subjective IMO.

    That said, I have a feeling you would have a LEO interaction regarding this.

    Edit: saw your latest post. I would still say (e) could apply since you could be picking up your student to go to dinner. Just because she drove to school does not mean you can't be picking her up...
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 04-13-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I recently had a question as to my following the letter of the law 9.41.280




    The primary question, is my firearm 'secured' in my topless (Jeep girls like it topless and dirty) Jeep while I sit there in plain view?
    Two of the common meanings of "secured" are

    1. Free from exposure or harm.
    2. In safe custody or keeping.

    I guess the question would be is the firearm in "safe custody", you meet the in an attended vehicle part, so I would have to say you are OK unless the firearm was out of the vehicle. Having said that who knows what a judge or jury would think or do.

    Not to hijack your thread but (f) & (g) are a bit contradictory. (f) says legally in possession of a firearm concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; (g) says legally in possession of an unloaded firearm if left in the vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school.

    When does the unloaded part kick in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post

    Edit: saw your latest post. I would still say (e) could apply since you could be picking up your student to go to dinner. Just because she drove to school does not mean you can't be picking her up...
    Once again another good reason not to talk to Cops, the defense of we were going to dinner would be out the window if you said very much.

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    If I were in that situation, I believe I would conceal it, especially in light of the recent school shootings. Sometimes it doesn't matter what's fair, right, or legal. Sometimes it all comes down to public (or LEO) perception, as in the Zimmerman case. Just my opinion.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Are you really on School Property if you don't step out of your vehicle? If you drive in, sit and watch, and drive out, never setting foot on the School grounds I wouldn't think it's an issue.

    If you leave it on your person, some left-wing, wacko, soccer mom, will probably see it and call the cops. Why not just put it in the glove box and avoid the issues, even if your legal? With all the focus on schools and guns of late it would take hours for anyone to figure out if you were good to go or not.

    To me it would be like peeing on an electric fence just to see if it's turned on, or not.
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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Are you really on School Property if you don't step out of your vehicle? If you drive in, sit and watch, and drive out, never setting foot on the School grounds I wouldn't think it's an issue.
    If some guy comes and parks in your driveway and sits there, is he on your property?
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    If you choose to push ahead with the concept of being secure on ones person, on a school grounds or property will likely make you a test case in defining (1) and (2) when it comes to RCW 9.41.

    RCW9.41.300(3)(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is (1) secured within an attended vehicle or (2) concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;
    Mind you I do support the concept of being able to carry firearms in and upon school grounds for lawful purposes, but we are very restricted in doing so right now.

    As others have suggested I would just conceal in this setting and enjoy your daughters tennis matches and being armed if the need arises.
    If something where to happen then the law of Necessity comes into play so you can defend yourself or another on school grounds.

    WPIC 18.02 Necessity—Defense
    Necessity is a defense to a charge of __________ if
    (1) the defendant reasonably believed the commission of the crime was necessary to avoid or minimize a harm; and
    (2) the harm sought to be avoided was greater than the harm resulting from a violation of the law; and
    (3) the threatened harm was not brought about by the defendant; and
    (4) no reasonable legal alternative existed.
    The defendant has the burden of proving this defense by a preponderance of the evidence. Preponderance of the evidence means that you must be persuaded, considering all the evidence in the case, that it is more probably true than not true. If you find that the defendant has established this defense, it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty [as to this charge].
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Last year I was doing a remodel at a high school. You can be sure that I did not take my gun off until I was going to leave my truck. I put my gun back on before leaving the parking lot. I think if you have legitimate business at the school you should be fine. Watching your daughter play tennis seems like legitimate business to me. So you never leave your vehicle, so what. No need to take it off in my non lawyerly opinion.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    If some guy comes and parks in your driveway and sits there, is he on your property?
    In my driveway he'd be trespassing. How does one trespass on a public parking lot?
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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    In my driveway he'd be trespassing. How does one trespass on a public parking lot?
    You didn't mention that scope in your other comment. You questioned if he remained in his vehicle, was he physically on school grounds? So by your answer above, I would say yes, since you made it clear that if somebody was in a vehicle on your property they are technically ON your property.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    BigDave...that is exactly what I did. As I drove onto campus, I pulled over to a discreet part of the parking lot and un-holstered and put my firearm in my glove box and locked it.
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    I understand that Congressman Adam Smith was the person responsible for promoting this kooky ban on school grounds a number of years ago while he was in the state legislature.

    It is in the best interest of public safety that this entire law be rescinded, or modified at a minimum to contain a full and complete exemption for people with CPLs.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44Brent View Post
    I understand that Congressman Adam Smith was the person responsible for promoting this kooky ban on school grounds a number of years ago while he was in the state legislature.

    It is in the best interest of public safety that this entire law be rescinded, or modified at a minimum to contain a full and complete exemption for people with CPLs.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Last year I was doing a remodel at a high school. You can be sure that I did not take my gun off until I was going to leave my truck. I put my gun back on before leaving the parking lot. I think if you have legitimate business at the school you should be fine. Watching your daughter play tennis seems like legitimate business to me. So you never leave your vehicle, so what. No need to take it off in my non lawyerly opinion.
    Just to stir the pot tom: You were doing a remodel at a school? Then that "school" was not being used exclusively as a place to educate (I would assume it was summer) those under 18 (being used as a "school") Does/did at the time/.280 even apply?

    Reasoning: "school" auditoriums are regularly rented out for non school purposes...like as for a church on Saturday or Sunday. When it is a church, is it still a school?

    And if so, how about these churches that have private schools and use their church buildings...Is it still a school, when it is a church?

    WA AG opinion on the matter seems to say, school is school, where ever it may be, when it is exclusively being used as a school, and does not extend to any particular duration, but otherwise, it is not school per .280

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/op...=topic&id=9238 (snippet)

    "Again, ESSB 5307 prohibits persons from possessing weapons in "areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools". "Exclusively" modifies the word "used". Thus, ESSB 5307 did not prohibit weapon possession in every facility used by a school, but only in those used "exclusively" by the school."
    Last edited by hermannr; 04-16-2012 at 01:37 AM.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Just to stir the pot tom: You were doing a remodel at a school? Then that "school" was not being used exclusively as a place to educate (I would assume it was summer) those under 18 (being used as a "school") Does/did at the time/.280 even apply?

    Reasoning: "school" auditoriums are regularly rented out for non school purposes...like as for a church on Saturday or Sunday. When it is a church, is it still a school?

    And if so, how about these churches that have private schools and use their church buildings...Is it still a school, when it is a church?

    WA AG opinion on the matter seems to say, school is school, where ever it may be, when it is exclusively being used as a school, and does not extend to any particular duration, but otherwise, it is not school per .280

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/op...=topic&id=9238 (snippet)

    "Again, ESSB 5307 prohibits persons from possessing weapons in "areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools". "Exclusively" modifies the word "used". Thus, ESSB 5307 did not prohibit weapon possession in every facility used by a school, but only in those used "exclusively" by the school."
    Yes, I was there while school was in session.
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