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Thread: Maryland returns unprocessed handgun permit applications

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Maryland returns unprocessed handgun permit applications

    After Judge Legg handed down his ruling in Woollard v. Sheridan that Maryland's requirement of a "good and sufficient reason" to receive a handgun permit was unconstitutional, hundred of applicants flooded the Maryland State Police Licensing Division with applications.

    However, Judge Legg subsequently issued a temporary stay of that order and the state is petitioning for a permanent stay pending appeal. Given those circumstances, Maryland has been returning applications unprocessed with the following letter ...


    Excerpt ... Read more

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Two things I would like to bring to your attention regarding this article.

    First, I do not think there is a single "Shall Issue" state that would deny a permit application if an applicant said they were denied a MD permits based on the lack of "good and substantial reason". Virginia does not, North Carolina does not, Florida and Utah do not, and I doubt ANY "Shall Issue: state would. I've never heard of such a thing. So your assertion that MD is doing this to somehow not jeapordize people's permit apps to other states is spurious. And besides, do you REALLY think that MSP wants to HELP people get permits from other states? Really?...

    Secondly, you are forgetting the statistics angle. Every year when we have testimony before the MD House Judiciary Committee regarding overturning this ridiculous "Good and Substantial Reason" requirement, the MSP submits that the current system is perfect because they have a 97% acceptance rate. They assert that because of the high level of qualification in MD, there are almost NO people who try to get permits who shouldn't have them. (The truth is that thousands of law-abiding citizen just don't bother to apply because they know that they are not wealthy or well-connected enough to get the permit).

    If MSP had denied all these applications, it would have DRAMATICALLY skewed ther rejection statistics for 2012, and then they couldn't use their ridiculous argument anymore. Had they rejected these applications, their "denial rate" for 2012 would have been more like 25-30%, and all those denials would be for people who most likely ALREADY have non-resident permits in other states like Utah, Florida and Virginia, and that would not look good for MSP...

    I applaud MSP's decision to return people's application fees. I also figured they would just cash the checks, keep the money, and deny everyone out of hand.

    But if you think this decision has ANYTHING to do with fairness, concern for the Rule of Law or the Civil Rights of the MD populace, or with trying to maintain positive PR with the Citizens of MD, you are being rather naive...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-14-2012 at 06:20 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Two things I would like to bring to your attention regarding this article.

    First, I do not think there is a single "Shall Issue" state that would deny a permit application if an applicant said they were denied a MD permits based on the lack of "good and substantial reason". Virginia does not, North Carolina does not, Florida and Utah do not, and I doubt ANY "Shall Issue: state would. I've never heard of such a thing. So your assertion that MD is doing this to somehow not jeapordize people's permit apps to other states is spurious. And besides, do you REALLY think that MSP wants to HELP people get permits from other states? Really?...

    Secondly, you are forgetting the statistics angle. Every year when we have testimony before the MD House Judiciary Committee regarding overturning this ridiculous "Good and Substantial Reason" requirement, the MSP submits that the current system is perfect because they have a 97% acceptance rate. They assert that because of the high level of qualification in MD, there are almost NO people who try to get permits who shouldn't have them. (The truth is that thousands of law-abiding citizen just don't bother to apply because they know that they are not wealthy or well-connected enough to get the permit).

    If MSP had denied all these applications, it would have DRAMATICALLY skewed ther rejection statistics for 2012, and then they couldn't use their ridiculous argument anymore. Had they rejected these applications, their "denial rate" for 2012 would have been more like 25-30%, and all those denials would be for people who most likely ALREADY have non-resident permits in other states like Utah, Florida and Virginia, and that would not look good for MSP...

    I applaud MSP's decision to return people's application fees. I also figured they would just cash the checks, keep the money, and deny everyone out of hand.

    But if you think this decision has ANYTHING to do with fairness, concern for the Rule of Law or the Civil Rights of the MD populace, or with trying to maintain positive PR with the Citizens of MD, you are being rather naive...
    They didn't return the fingerprinting fees. This also violates COMAR. They are required to accept and process those applications regardless of how they feel about it.

    Everyone who applied using "self defense" knew that they would probably lose the app fee and the fingerprinting fees.

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    That letter is just an example of government gone bad, and beyond. Self-defense is clearly "good and sufficient" reason. How that good and more than sufficient reason can be turned on its head is a great example of government gone putrid.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That letter is just an example of governmenthe GCAt gone bad, and beyond. Self-defense is clearly "good and sufficient" reason. How that good and more than sufficient reason can be turned on its head is a great example of government gone putrid.
    Don't disagree with you Citizen, but I think personal protection is a better "good and sufficient" reason. Why? Because it is part of section 101 of the Gun Control Act of 1968. Just makes the Md. argument that much harder. (How do you argue that personal protection is not sufficient without unraveling the GCA)
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Just my unsolicited opinion, but...

    I really think that Maryland is going to go from a "May Issue" state to a No Issue state.
    The brown shirt MD State Police will NEVER afford that states citizens the basic human (and constitutional) right of self defense if they can help it.

    I think we are going to see the carry laws of MD mirror that of Illinois, Hawaii and D.C.
    They will just refuse everyone., Even those with a reasonable need.

    I remember in Maryland if I went to a restaurant with a few gun buddies and we discussed firearms at the table, the customers next to us would look at us like we were terrorists just for discussing firearms.

    For those not living in Maryland, its a whole 'nother world when it comes to firearms and how they are perceived there.

    The worst part about this whole mess is the law abiding gun owners living in the Baltimore and DC area truly do need carry permits to protect themselves and their families.
    Its one of the most dangerous places in America.

    I grew up in Baltimore city and know of two people who were murdered.

    One was the owner of an Italian resturuant on Bel Air Road (I was actually there the night he was killed) and the other was a friend from High School who was beaten to death with a hammer.

    If either one of them had the ability to legally carry, they would probably still be alive.
    Last edited by Sig229; 04-15-2012 at 11:07 PM.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Maryland is indeed a dangerous place. I was born there and lived all over the state, including 10 years in the Baltimore City metro area. During that time, I survived an armed robbery attempt by a knife wielding assailant (I got away), two home invasion burglaries (one guy wouldn't leave until I told him I had a shotgun), one cold burglary where Baltimore County police shot one of the burglars on my doorstep while I was at work, a car-jacking attempt (I ran them down with the car, they got out of the way, but police wouldn't even take a report or come to the intersection - "They'll be long gone before we get there..") and a handgun assault by a disgruntled employee (didn't shoot - Howard County police said that despite several arrests for possession with intent to distribute, there hadn't been any convictions, so an assault or brandishing case would go nowhere and they would probably give him the gun back).

    My sister lives in Woodlawn, on the west side of Baltimore, just inside their beltway. She came home one day with husband and 2 kids to find their house was riddled with over 100 bullet holes. Guy who lived 2 doors away was some kind of gang member/drug dealer. Rivals did a drive by, but shot up the wrong house. Shooter's father turned him in, otherwise, nothing would have happened. My sister got a summons for the trial via first class mail and wanted to testify, but when she called for details, the court told her to stay away. "Why do you think we sent that summons by mail and not in person? So you could deny you ever got it. If you come to testify, your life, and that of every friend and family member they can find will be in serious danger. Don't come to the trial." The shooter was sentenced to a long jail stretch. Not sure how much of it he'll actually do.

    I left the state for the lower tax and lower crime of Virginia when I was 27.

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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Just my unsolicited opinion, but...

    I really think that Maryland is going to go from a "May Issue" state to a No Issue state.
    The brown shirt MD State Police will NEVER afford that states citizens the basic human (and constitutional) right of self defense if they can help it.

    I think we are going to see the carry laws of MD mirror that of Illinois, Hawaii and D.C.
    They will just refuse everyone., Even those with a reasonable need.

    I remember in Maryland if I went to a restaurant with a few gun buddies and we discussed firearms at the table, the customers next to us would look at us like we were terrorists just for discussing firearms.

    For those not living in Maryland, its a whole 'nother world when it comes to firearms and how they are perceived there.

    The worst part about this whole mess is the law abiding gun owners living in the Baltimore and DC area truly do need carry permits to protect themselves and their families.
    Its one of the most dangerous places in America.

    I grew up in Baltimore city and know of two people who were murdered.

    One was the owner of an Italian resturuant on Bel Air Road (I was actually there the night he was killed) and the other was a friend from High School who was beaten to death with a hammer.

    If either one of them had the ability to legally carry, they would probably still be alive.

    Besides the high cost of living, taxes, etc., the anti-gun laws are a main reason I will not return to MD. These liberals do not want us to have a gun and carry it for the simple reason they don't think we should be able to. For them, that's enough.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    Besides the high cost of living, taxes, etc., the anti-gun laws are a main reason I will not return to MD. These liberals do not want us to have a gun and carry it for the simple reason they don't think we should be able to. For them, that's enough.
    Yeah, but apparently, it's OK for THEM to carry...

    Barbara Mikulski, US Senator for MD had a MD carry permit for years, and she has been a vocal opponent against ALL gun rights her entire career. She was integral in getting the "assault weapons ban" passed...

    Diane Feinstein has a CA carry permit--and it was issued for San Francisco--perhaps the most DIFFICULT jurisdiction in CA to get such a permit. In fact, she had the ONLY permit in Frisco for years...

    Senator Ted Kennedy of MA had a carry permit--even though he had a well-known alcohol addiction problem, was involved in a drunk-driving-related negligent homicide earlier in his life, and was one of the most vocal anti-2A Senators in Congress. Oh, BTW, he was ALSO on the DHS "No Fly List", due to an error regarding an IRA member with a similar name. (So according to Rahm Emmauel, he should not only have NEVER been allowed to own a firearm let alone carry one, but he should have had his passport revoked...)

    Barbara Boxer has a CA permit.

    Sean Penn, the actor, has a CA permit.

    Senator Chuck Schumer has a NY and an NYC permit.

    "Liberals" are not against guns--they are just against guns in the hands of the "wrong kinds of people", and I think we ALL know what that REALLY means...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Yeah, but apparently, it's OK for THEM to carry...

    Barbara Mikulski, US Senator for MD had a MD carry permit for years, and she has been a vocal opponent against ALL gun rights her entire career. She was integral in getting the "assault weapons ban" passed...
    Can't speak to this.

    Diane Feinstein has a CA carry permit--and it was issued for San Francisco--perhaps the most DIFFICULT jurisdiction in CA to get such a permit. In fact, she had the ONLY permit in Frisco for years...
    She had it for 1 year during a direct threat in the late 1970's. She let it expire and never had it since. She does not have a carry license. I would know if she did.

    Senator Ted Kennedy of MA had a carry permit--even though he had a well-known alcohol addiction problem, was involved in a drunk-driving-related negligent homicide earlier in his life, and was one of the most vocal anti-2A Senators in Congress. Oh, BTW, he was ALSO on the DHS "No Fly List", due to an error regarding an IRA member with a similar name. (So according to Rahm Emmauel, he should not only have NEVER been allowed to own a firearm let alone carry one, but he should have had his passport revoked...)
    Can't speak to this. Massachusetts doesn't allow this info to be public at all for anyone, since LTC A's are required to possess handguns in the home.

    Barbara Boxer has a CA permit.
    She does not, neither in unincorporated Marin County (where she lived) or Riverside County (the city she lives in is patrolled by Riverside Sheriff's).

    Sean Penn, the actor, has a CA permit.
    He does not. He did, but having a stolen plus all of his DV stuff caught up with him. It's been revoked for over a decade.

    Senator Chuck Schumer has a NY and an NYC permit.
    This is true, and verifiable via Public Records Request.

    "Liberals" are not against guns--they are just against guns in the hands of the "wrong kinds of people", and I think we ALL know what that REALLY means...
    I know plenty of liberals who believe in the full measure of RKBA. Numerous ones testified in front of the Seattle Parks Board when Mayor Nickels tried to ram through his regulations unlawfully. Two of them were plaintiffs in the state preemption case that was filed against Seattle.

    This isn't an invite to argument, but a correction to some of the stuff in re Boxer and Feinstein mostly.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    This isn't an invite to argument, but a correction to some of the stuff in re Boxer and Feinstein mostly.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Personal attack
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-18-2012 at 01:47 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    This isn't an invite to argument, but a correction to some of the stuff in re Boxer and Feinstein mostly.

    So what you're saying is occasional and fleeting duplicity and elitism is acceptable behavior from politicians, and you're OK with giving these folks a "pass" on their two-faced, backstabbing agenda of "carry is OK if you're rich or "important", but if you're an average citizen, then NO WAY"?

    That's what I'm hearing...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So what you're saying is occasional and fleeting duplicity and elitism is acceptable behavior from politicians, and you're OK with giving these folks a "pass" on their two-faced, backstabbing agenda of "carry is OK if you're rich or "important", but if you're an average citizen, then NO WAY"?

    That's what I'm hearing...
    No, I'm pointing out that telling people false supposed "facts" nullifies your argument to the wider world when it's exposed to be partially untrue. The 2 A community is already plagued with falsely attributed quotes from our founding fathers & by bad men in our history. In regards to the California politicians, I have access to data you do not currently have, having access to copies of the licensing database per the California Public Records Act.

    I don't disagree with most of the rest. Elitism is never acceptable.

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    We have a new wrinkle in this situation.

    Applications have, until today, been in 3 categories...

    1. Pre-Woolard (decision)... business as usual, "old business"

    2. Post-Woollard, but Pre-Stay... Applications were received, checks processed, interviews ongoing (had mine today, in fact)... these apps will likely be slow-boated, but seem to be given token attention

    3. Post-Woollard, Post-Stay... Applications were returned to applicants, checks uncashed... This is attracting some attention as a "bad faith" gesture by MSP, even though it is likely still legal (for now)


    Today, we get word that an applicant in Group 2--who has already had an interview--receive the application back with a REFUND check (which is not supposed to be possible under the application instructions).

    This will get loud.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    Today, we get word that an applicant in Group 2--who has already had an interview--receive the application back with a REFUND check (which is not supposed to be possible under the application instructions).

    This will get loud.
    Just as I suspected. Truly sad.
    Maryland would be a wonderful state if it weren't just for a couple of things. Crime and strict gun laws. Both of which are probably related.

    I see you're in AACO, how's Pasadena doing lately?
    I went to Chesapeake High School for a while.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    Today, we get word that an applicant in Group 2--who has already had an interview--receive the application back with a REFUND check (which is not supposed to be possible under the application instructions).

    This will get loud.

    Testify, Brother!

    Not only have MSP and AG Gansler decided to thumb their noses at the Federal Court and show their utter contempt for the US Constitution, they are now operating the permit process in violation of MD State Statutes.

    Yeah, this is going to get REAL interesting...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Testify, Brother!

    Not only have MSP and AG Gansler decided to thumb their noses at the Federal Court and show their utter contempt for the US Constitution, they are now operating the permit process in violation of MD State Statutes.

    Yeah, this is going to get REAL interesting...
    Although Im sure it would have been heavily biased, but has there been any local media attention about all of this down there?

    Im sure WBAL or WJZ would love to get loud mouthed Mikulski's view on this matter.
    Last edited by Sig229; 04-18-2012 at 10:21 PM.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Although Im sure it would have been heavily biased, but has there been any local media attention about all of this down there?

    Im sure WBAL or WJZ would love to get loud mouthed Mikulski's view on this matter.

    Especially since Babs actually used to have on of those ultra-rare MD Unrestricted permits herself.

    In MD, I think one of the requirements to get a permit is that you have to be an elected public servant who is loudly and vocally AGAINST carry rights for Citizens...

    But no, there hasn't been much coverage that I know of. I don't watch much local news though.

    The papers had some articles when the ruling first came down, and then again when Gansler was granted his stay. Most were against the ruling--Washington Post, Baltimore Sun, etc. The Washington Times was on the "pro" side of neutral. But this court case is getting a lot more play in the rest of the country than it is here in the Baltimore/DC metro area--and I think the media is probably working under orders from TPTB in Washington DC to keep it on the DL so people don't now about it.

    The fact that Woollard is an African-American, retired, law-abiding, and a Veteran make the anti's look REALLY bad, and just proves that most "gun control" laws--ESPECIALLY in MD--are nothing but 21st-century Jim Crow...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
    After Judge Legg handed down his ruling in Woollard v. Sheridan that Maryland's requirement of a "good and sufficient reason" to receive a handgun permit was unconstitutional, hundred of applicants flooded the Maryland State Police Licensing Division with applications.

    However, Judge Legg subsequently issued a temporary stay of that order and the state is petitioning for a permanent stay pending appeal. Given those circumstances, Maryland has been returning applications unprocessed with the following letter ...


    Excerpt ... Read more
    How would this effect NY? Other than being another bullet in the gun of litigation argument..

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    The fact that Woollard is an African-American, retired, law-abiding, and a Veteran make the anti's look REALLY bad, and just proves that most "gun control" laws--ESPECIALLY in MD--are nothing but 21st-century Jim Crow...
    LOL
    I bet the Anti's heads are spinning over that.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I strongly believe that the MAIN reason the Woollard case isn't getting much play in the media isn't because it ruled in favor of greatly expanded 2A rights in MD, but BECAUSE the plaintiff (Woollard) is a retired, veteran African American. If word got out in MD (and other such places) that there are actually African America citizens who CAN and HAVE got permits in MD and remained law-abiding, and were eventually denied renewal based on nothing more than institutionalized Jim Crow, that would put a pretty big cramp in the style of the Brady's, VPC and their ilk...

    Am I playing the race card in this case? Hell, yeah, every chance I get. Because I think we ALL know why Woollard was denied his second renewal--and it WASN'T because of the "content of his character"...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I strongly believe that the MAIN reason the Woollard case isn't getting much play in the media isn't because it ruled in favor of greatly expanded 2A rights in MD, but BECAUSE the plaintiff (Woollard) is a retired, veteran African American. If word got out in MD (and other such places) that there are actually African America citizens who CAN and HAVE got permits in MD and remained law-abiding, and were eventually denied renewal based on nothing more than institutionalized Jim Crow, that would put a pretty big cramp in the style of the Brady's, VPC and their ilk...

    Am I playing the race card in this case? Hell, yeah, every chance I get. Because I think we ALL know why Woollard was denied his second renewal--and it WASN'T because of the "content of his character"...
    True.

    Also, think about this.
    As you know the MDSP and the Baltimore PD get HUGE federal grants for crime fighting. Also, they get more funding from the state as well.

    If they did allow law abiding people to carry, as we all know the crime rate would in fact go down.
    Whats that mean? Less justification for all that funding.

    I can drive for hours around the city of Pittsburgh and maybe see one or two cop cars. In Maryland , you cant drive five minutes without one riding your bumper for 30 miles. They are everywhere down there.


    Just a thought.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Testify, Brother!

    Not only have MSP and AG Gansler decided to thumb their noses at the Federal Court and show their utter contempt for the US Constitution, they are now operating the permit process in violation of MD State Statutes.

    Yeah, this is going to get REAL interesting...
    Well, we now know that the instance I cited before was "bad timing"... It really was submitted after the stay, and processed in-kind with others receiving the "non-denial denial letter"

    But, regardless, MSP fails to disappoint in their game-playing.

    Today, we hear that an FTF interview included a comment by the interviewing Trooper that the applicant should soon be receiving a letter requesting G&S for further processing.

    Barnum would be an eager student for this one.....
    Last edited by Mr H; 04-23-2012 at 08:20 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    Today, we hear that an FTF interview included a comment by the interviewing Trooper that the applicant should soon be receiving a letter requesting G&S for further processing.

    That interviewee should have Alan Gura hand-deliver his letter--and it should consist of nothing but the text of the Second Amendment in 72pt type.

    And there should be a press team with a video camera there to document the whole thing, and post it on YouTube...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    They didn't return the fingerprinting fees. This also violates COMAR. They are required to accept and process those applications regardless of how they feel about it.

    Everyone who applied using "self defense" knew that they would probably lose the app fee and the fingerprinting fees.

    They can't return what they never had. MD requires resident prints be taken by an outside contractor. The applicant pays the contractor.
    States don’t have rights. People do.

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