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Thread: 1st negative OC experience

  1. #1
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    1st negative OC experience

    I have been open carrying regularly since Christmas when I got a holster I feel comfortable with. Today I had my first bad experience.

    I went to Char Grill on Strickland Rd. in Raleigh as the first stop of several for the day. Walked in thru the back door and first table I walked past there were two guys and one says to the other, "That guy has a pistol on his hip!" I walk around and ordered and found a seat to wait. The other guy begins eye******* me hard. Soon, their names are called and they leave, I get my food and sit back down to eat. 5 min later RPD walks in and asks me to keep my hands on the table where she can see them. She says they got a MWAG call. She says, "Why do you have a gun? Is it just because you have a right to carry or something?" I reply, "Yes that, and self-defense." She asked who I was and where my ID was, I told her it was in my back right pocket, same side as holster. I asked if she would like me to retrieve it slowly, she said no, she wanted to wait for backup to arrive. I know my drivers license number so I gave it to her and she called it in to someone on the way there. She explained that as long as I wasnt a felon or have warrants that I would be free to go. She also said that after confirming that, that she would talk to the Char Grill manager to ask if they have a problem with me being there.

    She asked where I live, and what I was doing in Raleigh (This wasnt asked interrogatively, it was more small talk as we were waiting on another officer to arrive.) I said I had a massage at 1 and this was gonna make me late for it. I also said how annoyed I was at all this. I hadnt done anything wrong, just minding my own business having lunch. She understood but said when they get a MWAG call the have to respond, to which I told her I understood that also. She said, "some people see a guy w/ a gun and feel scared." I replied, "That may be, but I dont let other people's feelings trump my right to defend myself." She also mentioned she didnt if a patron or employee made the MWAG call. I told her I knew who it was, a patron who was staring at me the whole time I was there until he left. She also asked if Ive ever considered getting my CHP, and i replied that I have, but for now I enjoy OC'ing.

    So anyway, other cop showed, cleared me. Went to talk w/ Char Grill manager who did not mind at all my presence there with a firearm, so i finished my lunch in peace (if you call having an entire crowded restaurant watching you sit with your hands still talking to police like a criminal peace.) I went to get a refill and the guy behind the counter said he was sorry for what happened, that no one who works there called, and that 3 employees were carrying at that very moment.

    I had not decided whether or not to carry in my massage appointment, but feeling a bit victorious I decided to go in and if someone minded they would speak up. So I went to Massage Envy on Falls of Neuse Rd OC'ing. First girl I talked to mentioned she just got a Glock and was big into guns. My actual massage therapist saw it and commented that she is just now trying to learn about guns and is signed up for a class for beginners and was going to purchase one soon after. So that went better than expected.

    OC'd at the new Aldi in Wake Forest, clerk commented that she wished she could carry in the store but employees arent allowed. Also went to Lowes Foods, Casual Male big and tall clothing store, and ABC store, OC'ing w/o incident as it should be.

    All in all, Char Grill is to be commended, as was this RPD officer. She was very polite, understands NC gun law (at least to the extent we discussed it) and was apologetic for bothering me, saying she had to its her job. I just wish she or the dispatcher would call back the ***** who called and give him a short lesson on 2A rights in NC.
    "I believe that a person's moral compass can be determined by how he references free men the right to defend themselves." - Ted Nugent

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    Glad it turned out OK.. I think I might start call the cops every time I see a clown or santa or easter bunny. Not that I have a real "problem" with them, just because I might be nervous about who is hiding under the costume.

  3. #3
    Regular Member J_Oliver's Avatar
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    Small talk or not, I would have asked if we could step outside to discuss the issue instead of a crowded resturant. Then it would have been silence on my part. I have no desire to speak to someone willing to embarrass, degrade, and attempt to unnecessarily revoke my rights. And when she told you to keep your hands where they were, I would have politely asked if I was being detained, under arrest and if I was free to leave and left.

    And on that note, we can all say what we would have done, but no harm no foul on your part in the least.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    North Carolina is NOT a "stop and identify" state. An LEO has NO legal authority to require you to produce ANY sort of ID if they stop you on foot and you are OCing. Requiring you to do so is a volation of your 4th and 5th Amendment rights.

    All you are required to provide if you are not in a motor vehicle is your name and address, and failing to produce ID CANNOT be used to effect an arrest or charge you with "obstruction" or "failure to comply"...

    I'm glad this situation worked out for you, but you were SERIOUSLY violated, and this officer's action were DIRECT violations of NC, Federal, and Case Law. You may very well have an actionable case if you decide to pursue it.

    Don't talk to the police--even "small talk". ESPECIALLY "small talk". Police are NOT trained to chat you up because they want to be your buddy--they are trained to try and fish for something they can arrest you for, because arrest statistics are a metric they use to decide on who gets promotions, and increased arrest numbers help them get bigger budgets for their department.

    DO NOT volunteer information to cops. Nothing good can EVER come from it.

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    Question

    Yes, why did you offer ID?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Yes, why did you offer ID?
    Really just because I had a 1PM appointment for a massage that I didnt want to miss (especially due to being locked up, regardless of right or wrong.) I thought about not cooperating, being silent, and ask if I was being detained, etc. but since this officer was polite and went out of her way to let me know she was sort of going through the motions because she had to, I decided to make things easy on everyone and cooperate. Maybe next time I wont, maybe I will, I guess I'll take each situation like this as it comes and do what I think is best at the time.
    "I believe that a person's moral compass can be determined by how he references free men the right to defend themselves." - Ted Nugent

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    small talk

    Dreamer does make a good point about small talk. I probably shouldnt have said anything. Cops ARE trained to talk to you to get you to talk to say something incriminating.
    "I believe that a person's moral compass can be determined by how he references free men the right to defend themselves." - Ted Nugent

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by condeist View Post
    Dreamer does make a good point about small talk. I probably shouldnt have said anything. Cops ARE trained to talk to you to get you to talk to say something incriminating.
    Dreamer makes a huge point. There was no small talk taking place. It was all fishing, supported by lies/deception and done under color of law.

    The was no legal reason for the delay of Mr. Condeist other than he took the bait and consented to the "interview." There was no valid reason for ID to be supplied, nor for "checking him out" - he was breaking no laws and surely didn't look about to break any.

    The officers question about a permit and saying they would ask the manager whether he should be allowed to stay were both out of line.

    Personally, I would file an FOIA request and then at the very least file a formal complaint.

    There are sooo many wrongs and no rights with the conduct of the LEO.

    This not intended as a slam of how Mr. Condeist handled the interaction. By his own admission he is relatively new to OC, perhaps unsure of how far to go.

    Things might have gone better if he had just continued eating (not talking) after verbally identifying himself.
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    I OC around the same area and have never had a single problem.

    I applaud you for staying calm and handling the situation in a non-confrontational and considerate manner but, No matter what appointment you have next it is not worth teaching police it is okay to harass lawfully armed citizens in any way shape or form. Next time know your rights and how to excercise them. The more we as LAC's tolerate and try to appease this behavior just because they are "doing there job." we prolong this improper and immoral interaction between LEO and LAC.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Heed Grapeshot's words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Personally, I would file an FOIA request and then at the very least file a formal complaint.
    There are sooo many wrongs and no rights with the conduct of the LEO.
    Any time.... Every time, the public servants get out of line and stop serving the public their conduct needs to be called into question.

    There is a maxim in customer service that for every complaint, there are a thousand dissatisfied customers that didn't voice their displeasure. That's one-thousand voices that are not making a difference.

    Make the difference.

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    There is no such thing as small talk when an officer is responding to a call. She was fishing and you were volunteering all the bait she needed. Never volunteer any information. You allowed yourself to be illegally detained. First question you should always ask is am I breaking any laws? Second question is am I being detained? Both of those questions would have got you a no. At that point you should state that you are free to go about your business. I would say "So I guess I am free to go". The officer, at that point, would have to respond with a yes. Any other answer from the officer to those questions/statements is them skirting your rights and trying to get you to nibble at their bait. For example when you state you are free to go their response might be, "Well I would like (not need) to make sure you have no wants or warrants. They are trained to fish for probable cause.

    Fear of detainment or arrest, in my opinion, is not justification for allowing your constitutional rights to be violated. If that was your deciding factor in participating in the officer's fishing expedition then you may want to consider your carrying decision. When the time comes and your sidearm is needed to defend your life will the thought of detainment and incarceration cause you to hesitate and take your life from you?

    By participating, you probably influenced everyone that witnessed your encounter to never want to open carry. They saw the unwarranted hassle you were put through and do not want to be subjected to the same scrutiny. In their eyes you did something wrong. Had you turned this into the thirty second conversation that it should have been then the people that were there would have seen that you did nothing wrong and there is no problems with open carry. I would bet that the two whistle blowers sat outside the whole time and felt like they saved the day. Had the officer walked in and left one minute later or you had walked out the door one minute after the officer arrived, free to go about your day, they would have been educated to the laws of this great state.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I wouldn't have kept on eating, if there was a knife present. She may have perceived a threat and shot you right there. However, I may have pointed out how many patrons were currently in possession of knives, including the ones behind her no matter where she stood. Perhaps suggest that there might be concealed carriers in the room who were no more suspicious than myself, and inquire what the lack of a piece of fabric over my firearm had to do with anything. Inquire why a call for a man peaceably enjoying a meal and not committing any crime is cause for a police response. Small talk works both ways. Then follow on with a modified, "Am I being detained? Am I free to continue my legal activities?"
    Last edited by paramedic70002; 04-15-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    After reading so many of these encounters I have formulated a response..

    cop} Do you have/Can I see some ID?
    me} Do you have/Can I hear your RAS?

    A technique I learned in salesmanship seminars.....The first one to speak at this point looses!

    If I am in a restaurant as the OP was and the cop says "We got a call of a man with a gun". My answer will be "Did you also get a call of man with a beard? Man with a newspaper? Man with a hot cup of coffee? I am doing nothing to qualify as RAS, please leave me alone my food/coffee is getting cold".

    No way am I going along with "You vill show your identity papers".

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by condeist View Post
    I have been open carrying regularly since Christmas when I got a holster I feel comfortable with. Today I had my first bad experience.
    Did you have your voice recorder running? If so, kudos on that. You should file an FOIA and have this 'officer' re-educated. Also, it behooves you to listen to the provided youtube about not talking to LEOs. Would you have provided your ID and your itinerary to an ordinary citizen? The cops have no right to inquire if you're not driving a car (at least in NC).
    Last edited by sawah; 04-15-2012 at 05:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by condeist View Post
    SNIP She explained that as long as I wasnt a felon or have warrants that I would be free to go. She also said that after confirming that, that she would talk to the Char Grill manager to ask if they have a problem with me being there.
    Thank you for confessing your real reason for the seizure, officer, and that you had neither probable cause nor reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS).*

    Essentially, she seized you and demanded identity so she could find out whether you were a prohibited possessor and to find out whether you had any warrants. Which is bass ackwards. She needs RAS to detain you, not detain you so she can get RAS. Did she check for warrants on all the other patrons? Of course, not.




    *Miranda is a two way street. Anything you say, officer, can and will be used against you.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-15-2012 at 05:55 PM.
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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    After rereading post #1....here is something else that bugs me;

    She also said...that she would talk to the Char Grill manager to ask if they have a problem with me being there.
    SINCE WHEN IS THAT HER JOB!!!!! I'll bet in school the b****** volunteered to be the hall monitor too! Probably handed out "slips" like party favors.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    After rereading post #1....here is something else that bugs me;
    She also said...that she would talk to the Char Grill manager to ask if they have a problem with me being there.
    SINCE WHEN IS THAT HER JOB!!!!! I'll bet in school the b****** volunteered to be the hall monitor too! Probably handed out "slips" like party favors.
    What's the standard in a criminal case, reasonable doubt?
    There isn't reasonable doubt in my mind that she was hoping to 'influence' the manager into 'having a problem' just so that her conduct might be seen as reasonable. Since the manager obviously had no problem, she looks exactly like what she is.... (something public decency prevents me from saying).

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    With the economy where it is, unsuitable officers should be easier to replace. There are plenty of people who could be made qualified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    So, you were willing to trade your constitutional rights for an appointment for a massage. Really sad.
    I guess there may have been a happy ending to this encounter after all!

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    The level of contempt in this thread, both for the OP and the cop, is over 9000.
    The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivuli View Post
    The level of contempt in this thread, both for the OP and the cop, is over 9000.
    Cool story, bro.

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    Regular Member Resto Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivuli View Post
    The level of contempt in this thread, both for the OP and the cop, is over 9000.

    Is that number determined by use of a contempt-o-meter?

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    I have to say again how thankful I am for this forum. Being able to learn from the experiences of others is a great thing. Great comments about the situation and whether or not the OP will admit it, I bet there was a little fear controlling his responses to the LEO. I bet if I was in that situation a year ago, I might have reacted similar. But now after learning so much from the people on here I like to think I have developed a confidence & knowledge to guide me through a situation like that were one to present itself.
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by smlawrence View Post
    I have to say again how thankful I am for this forum. Being able to learn from the experiences of others is a great thing. Great comments about the situation and whether or not the OP will admit it, I bet there was a little fear controlling his responses to the LEO. I bet if I was in that situation a year ago, I might have reacted similar. But now after learning so much from the people on here I like to think I have developed a confidence & knowledge to guide me through a situation like that were one to present itself.
    That's awesome. One of the greatest benefits of this forum has been the members who take no ****, and demand a cite whenever a point of law is made. Through that, I have learned more about how to exercise my rights than in all the constitutional law classes I have taken.
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
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    CCH permit

    How does the "Duty to inform requirement" in NC affect this situation.

    I have been told that having the CHP requires you to inform the officer directly when they make conversation with you.

    I don't like that requirement and would someday like to see it changed. Along with lots of others Va has it right.

    JA

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