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Thread: Fort Boise Gun Show

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Fort Boise Gun Show

    I worked the Idaho Open Carry booth at the Fort Boise Gun Show this morning with Tony, and it was an interesting experience, to say the least.

    We were able to speak to and educate many, many people as to their rights, and generally enjoyed a positive reception.

    For the first hour or so, Tony and I both carried our weapons without zip-ties, as we knew our state preemption law forbade any enforcement of any regulation regarding the possession or carrying of firearms in the county-owned building (please note, I am not really interested in people's opinions as to whether or not it is a safe practice for a gun show; it is legal under state law). I was actually approached at one point by an event security dude who said, "That's really cool! Do you need a zip-tie for that?" I replied politely, "No, I'm alright, thanks," and he wandered off.

    At some point, however, it did become an issue, and we were both separately approached with demands to show clear and zip-tie. Tony was speaking with another event official elsewhere while I was manning the booth, when I was approached by one of the gun show organizers who demanded I zip-tie and showed me his printed "rules" which he insinuated that I had to follow. I was in the process of politely explaining the state law to him when some no-gooder decided to stick his nose where it didn't belong. A liberal, you may ask? I wish I could say so.

    Unfortunately, you see, we were directly across the aisle from Alpha-Omega, a known anti-open carry business. The fat slob
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    they had working their booth decided he just had to get involved in the conversation I was having with the event organizer, and loudly and physically inserted himself (after he waddled over, of course). He got right in my face and told me that I was "ignorance personified" and "giving all gun owners a bad name." I repeatedly asked him politely to butt out of my private conversation. He then (while inches from my face) demanded that I go outside, clear, and zip-tie, and said that if I did not, he would "take you out of here!" I informed him that he would not be putting his hands on me, at which point he became even more angry and said, "We'll see about that! I worked 29 years in the DOJ, I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars putting these shows on, etc. etc. etc." I told him that I was not interested in his private business, and then returned my attention to the event organizer. As he was an older guy in a wheelchair, I got down on one knee so I could speak with him face-to-face. At this point, fat slob gets EVEN CLOSER, leaning down and screaming at me, while the old guy was trying to hold him back, saying, "Dave, I'll handle it." I felt threatened, so I stood up, put a little distance between me and the slob, and told him that he was very nearly committing assault and to be careful. He continued to wave his hands around in my face while yelling and causing a scene, so I backed up and waited.

    At some point, he retreated back to his own booth, but still harangued me from across the aisle, again contributing to a negative scene which all the bad open carriers in the world could not have equaled. I waited for Tony to get back from speaking to security, and then we both zip-tied and waited for the Ada County Sheriff to arrive (fat slob was pushing to have us arrested). Fat slob also took my picture and made some kind of vague "LEO-club" threat about me being hassled in the future (I asked if he made sure to get my good side).

    An Ada County Sheriff's deputy did arrive after nearly half an hour, and told us that we were not doing anything illegal, but that the event organizers could make us take our booth outside. In order to continue spreading awareness, we complied with their rules, but this fight is not over yet.

    What is especially strange to me is that this is the same facility I was initially denied entrance to at the Western Idaho Fair, until I stood my ground and the head security guy cleared up the confusion.

    As I was getting ready to leave, my friend Mike and I took pictures of the fat slob, and he had the audacity to whine that "There is no audio/visual recording here! That's a crime!!!" When we pointed out that he did it, he said, "I'm allowed to."

    Needless to say, don't spend your dollars with Alpha Omega.

    On a comical note, fat slob got a McDonald's delivery from some of his grabass friends while Tony and I were speaking. As he, dressed in gym shorts, flip-flops, homeless-style hair, and carrying about 200 pounds of gut, stuffed his face with french fries, he had the nerve to tell me again that I was reinforcing the stereotypes about gun owners. LOL!!! I just told him that the next time he threatens me, it would be more believable if I wasn't convinced he would die of a heart attack just by working up a sweat. Yes, smart-ass, I know, but I don't feel he deserved any better.

    Overall, I thought I did an OK job of keeping my cool despite the fact that he had me hotter than hell in July (Tony was so cool, he was like an ice cube - I need to learn from that).

    ...aaaaaaand good times were had by all.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 04-14-2012 at 06:24 PM.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  2. #2
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    That's rediculous. Sounds like an infuriating situation that you handled well. His apperence alone would of stopped me from buying anything from him. I mean c'mon don't look like a complete POS hillbilly while your selling firearms in a respectable crowd.

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    thats why you should not engage people to "educate" them. Let them remain ignorant. Just walk away from them.

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    I just moved to Boise and was wondering how we are allowed to carry at the Gun Show. i was thinking about going on sunday. I moved here from North Carolina and open carried everywhere. however at gun shows they did check weapons at the door and ziptie them. If I was there to shop and look around, do I have to clear and zip tie my weapon? Needless to say having just got here I need a little time to get well versed in the laws in Idaho. I knew the north carolina ones real well, but now it's time to turn to a different page, isn't it?

    So just looking for the simple mans rundown of what the code number is, and what it allows me to do at a gun show.

    Many thank,
    Brion

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brion View Post
    I just moved to Boise and was wondering how we are allowed to carry at the Gun Show. i was thinking about going on sunday. I moved here from North Carolina and open carried everywhere. however at gun shows they did check weapons at the door and ziptie them. If I was there to shop and look around, do I have to clear and zip tie my weapon? Needless to say having just got here I need a little time to get well versed in the laws in Idaho. I knew the north carolina ones real well, but now it's time to turn to a different page, isn't it?

    So just looking for the simple mans rundown of what the code number is, and what it allows me to do at a gun show.

    Many thank,
    Brion
    My personal advice would be to not carry loaded until we at least have further communication with the county. The organizer and event security will definitely make a scene; possibly bigger than the one today. I do know that Tony and others will be manning the booth tomorrow, and I think it would be a real shame if he was forced to take down the display because the organizers object to loaded carry, and associated you with us (whether or not that is the case).

    There are no Idaho laws about carry at a gun show. Our preemption law prevents any subdivision of state government from enforcing any regulation regarding the possession or carrying of firearms. The Fairgrounds is owned by Ada County. If this gun show were held on private property, the entire issue would be moot and they could make enforce any rules they wanted; if you refused to comply, you could be trespassed.

    I have had similar fights with other government agencies since I moved to the state, and I trust this one will also be solved in accordance with the Idaho Constitution and Code.

    TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS

    CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS

    18-3302J. Preemption of firearms regulation. (1) The legislature finds that uniform laws regulating firearms are necessary to protect the individual citizen's right to bear arms guaranteed by amendment 2 of the United States Constitution and section 11, article I of the constitution of the state of Idaho. It is the legislature's intent to wholly occupy the field of firearms regulation within this state.(2) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, no county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state may adopt or enforce any law, rule, regulation, or ordinance which regulates in any manner the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, transportation, carrying or storage of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition.

    (3) A county may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the discharge of firearms within its boundaries. Ordinances adopted under this subsection may not apply to or affect:

    (a) A person discharging a firearm in the lawful defense of person or persons or property;
    (b) A person discharging a firearm in the course of lawful hunting;
    (c) A landowner and guests of the landowner discharging a firearm, when the discharge will not endanger persons or property;

    (d) A person lawfully discharging a firearm on a sport shooting range as defined in section 55-2604, Idaho Code; or
    (e) A person discharging a firearm in the course of target shooting on public land if the discharge will not endanger persons or property.
    (4) A city may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the discharge of firearms within its boundaries. Ordinances adopted under this subsection may not apply to or affect:
    (a) A person discharging a firearm in the lawful defense of person or persons or property; or
    (b) A person lawfully discharging a firearm on a sport shooting range as defined in section 55-2604, Idaho Code.
    (5) This section shall not be construed to affect:

    (a) The authority of the department of fish and game to make rules or regulations concerning the management of any wildlife of this state, as set forth in section 36-104, Idaho Code;
    (b) The authority of counties and cities to regulate the location and construction of sport shooting ranges, subject to the limitations contained in chapter 26, title 55, Idaho Code; and
    (c) The authority of the board of regents of the university of Idaho, the boards of trustees of the state colleges and universities, the board of professional-technical education and the boards of trustees of each of the community colleges established under chapter 21, title 33, Idaho Code, to regulate in matters relating to firearms.

    (6) The provisions of this section are hereby declared to be severable. And if any provision is declared invalid for any reason, such declaration shall not affect the validity of the remaining portions of this section.

    History:

    [18-3302J, added 2008, ch. 304, sec. 2, p. 845.]
    ^Note that there is no exception in the preemption law for special events, gun shows, renters, lessees, etc. Minus the exception for colleges, I think it is one of the best preemption laws in the country.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 04-14-2012 at 11:51 PM.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I worked the Idaho Open Carry booth at the Fort Boise Gun Show this morning with Tony, and it was an interesting experience, to say the least.

    We were able to speak to and educate many, many people as to their rights, and generally enjoyed a positive reception.

    For the first hour or so, Tony and I both carried our weapons without zip-ties, as we knew our state preemption law forbade any enforcement of any regulation regarding the possession or carrying of firearms in the county-owned building (please note, I am not really interested in people's opinions as to whether or not it is a safe practice for a gun show; it is legal under state law). I was actually approached at one point by an event security dude who said, "That's really cool! Do you need a zip-tie for that?" I replied politely, "No, I'm alright, thanks," and he wandered off.

    At some point, however, it did become an issue, and we were both separately approached with demands to show clear and zip-tie. Tony was speaking with another event official elsewhere while I was manning the booth, when I was approached by one of the gun show organizers who demanded I zip-tie and showed me his printed "rules" which he insinuated that I had to follow. I was in the process of politely explaining the state law to him when some no-gooder decided to stick his nose where it didn't belong. A liberal, you may ask? I wish I could say so.

    Unfortunately, you see, we were directly across the aisle from Alpha-Omega, a known anti-open carry business. The fat slob
    Click image for larger version. 

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    they had working their booth decided he just had to get involved in the conversation I was having with the event organizer, and loudly and physically inserted himself (after he waddled over, of course). He got right in my face and told me that I was "ignorance personified" and "giving all gun owners a bad name." I repeatedly asked him politely to butt out of my private conversation. He then (while inches from my face) demanded that I go outside, clear, and zip-tie, and said that if I did not, he would "take you out of here!" I informed him that he would not be putting his hands on me, at which point he became even more angry and said, "We'll see about that! I worked 29 years in the DOJ, I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars putting these shows on, etc. etc. etc." I told him that I was not interested in his private business, and then returned my attention to the event organizer. As he was an older guy in a wheelchair, I got down on one knee so I could speak with him face-to-face. At this point, fat slob gets EVEN CLOSER, leaning down and screaming at me, while the old guy was trying to hold him back, saying, "Dave, I'll handle it." I felt threatened, so I stood up, put a little distance between me and the slob, and told him that he was very nearly committing assault and to be careful. He continued to wave his hands around in my face while yelling and causing a scene, so I backed up and waited.

    At some point, he retreated back to his own booth, but still harangued me from across the aisle, again contributing to a negative scene which all the bad open carriers in the world could not have equaled. I waited for Tony to get back from speaking to security, and then we both zip-tied and waited for the Ada County Sheriff to arrive (fat slob was pushing to have us arrested). Fat slob also took my picture and made some kind of vague "LEO-club" threat about me being hassled in the future (I asked if he made sure to get my good side).

    An Ada County Sheriff's deputy did arrive after nearly half an hour, and told us that we were not doing anything illegal, but that the event organizers could make us take our booth outside. In order to continue spreading awareness, we complied with their rules, but this fight is not over yet.

    What is especially strange to me is that this is the same facility I was initially denied entrance to at the Western Idaho Fair, until I stood my ground and the head security guy cleared up the confusion.

    As I was getting ready to leave, my friend Mike and I took pictures of the fat slob, and he had the audacity to whine that "There is no audio/visual recording here! That's a crime!!!" When we pointed out that he did it, he said, "I'm allowed to."

    Needless to say, don't spend your dollars with Alpha Omega.

    On a comical note, fat slob got a McDonald's delivery from some of his grabass friends while Tony and I were speaking. As he, dressed in gym shorts, flip-flops, homeless-style hair, and carrying about 200 pounds of gut, stuffed his face with french fries, he had the nerve to tell me again that I was reinforcing the stereotypes about gun owners. LOL!!! I just told him that the next time he threatens me, it would be more believable if I wasn't convinced he would die of a heart attack just by working up a sweat. Yes, smart-ass, I know, but I don't feel he deserved any better.

    Overall, I thought I did an OK job of keeping my cool despite the fact that he had me hotter than hell in July (Tony was so cool, he was like an ice cube - I need to learn from that).

    ...aaaaaaand good times were had by all.
    ALPHA OMEGA IS A RIP OFF. 25$ for 10$ scope mounts. 20$ for a bore sight. they flipped out when i brought my AR in with chamber safety flag without checking with them first. they told me "we need to check all firearms before they come in the store". i should have mentioned the loaded one under my shirt to see what would happen.

    didn't get the welcome feeling that i get at other gun stores. much attitude

  7. #7
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    This is the same jerk that John Carter and I had words with a couple of years ago. It's written up elsewhere in the Idaho thread and is the main reason I do not refer business to A-O. The man referred several times to "taking people out" and "killing them right there where you stand" while open-carrying if you touch that gun. He also repeatedly emphasized that they are taping and recording conversations in the store, apparently this was an attempt to be sure we understood that they were looking forward to a legal defense of killing someone.

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    I tend to agree with the Sheriff's deputy that you can be denied booth space and probably access under the terms of the event. If it was free admission, maybe not but since they charge and state their rules the law would have to be interpreted as preventing any user from establishing rules for attendees.

    Let us know how this goes and it would certainly be an interesting step if it is determined that the show cannot deny lawful carry of a loaded firearms.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    I tend to agree with the Sheriff's deputy that you can be denied booth space and probably access under the terms of the event. If it was free admission, maybe not but since they charge and state their rules the law would have to be interpreted as preventing any user from establishing rules for attendees.

    Let us know how this goes and it would certainly be an interesting step if it is determined that the show cannot deny lawful carry of a loaded firearms.
    My understanding of what the deputy said was that since we were breaking no laws, we could not be trespassed from the public building, only have our display taken down. There were plenty of folks obviously CC'ing (big bulges) and no one seemed to mind. We shall see...
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    I tend to agree with the Sheriff's deputy that you can be denied booth space and probably access under the terms of the event. If it was free admission, maybe not but since they charge and state their rules the law would have to be interpreted as preventing any user from establishing rules for attendees.

    Let us know how this goes and it would certainly be an interesting step if it is determined that the show cannot deny lawful carry of a loaded firearms.
    The idea is there to deny someone their rights or discriminate due to the events organizers idea's and rules. BUT this is on public land that everyone pays taxes on.

    Would it be ok for an event being held on public land to say ok but no Jews can come in?

    Would it be ok for and event being held on public land to say ok but no blacks?

    What is the difference of holding an event and telling someone that they have to check their rights and the US Constution at the door in order to go the the event.

    This is the big question? Who has the right to pick what rights people have to honor and what rights they don't.

    Can you how un PC it would be to tell people that wore a red shirt they are not welcome on the public property they pay for in their taxes.....but it is perfectly ok to tread on gun owners rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    The idea is there to deny someone their rights or discriminate due to the events organizers idea's and rules. BUT this is on public land that everyone pays taxes on.

    Would it be ok for an event being held on public land to say ok but no Jews can come in?

    Would it be ok for and event being held on public land to say ok but no blacks?

    What is the difference of holding an event and telling someone that they have to check their rights and the US Constution at the door in order to go the the event.

    This is the big question? Who has the right to pick what rights people have to honor and what rights they don't.

    Can you how un PC it would be to tell people that wore a red shirt they are not welcome on the public property they pay for in their taxes.....but it is perfectly ok to tread on gun owners rights.
    As I said, I "tend" to agree with the thought.

    Let's keep asking questions.....

    If you are having your family reunion on public land can you restrict access to family members?

    Can you have a prayer breakfast and expect that nobody will roll out a prayer rug and begin to chant prayers to Allah?

    While celebrating your grandson's birthday is it okay for Hare Krishna's to wander through trying to get a donation for their flowers and booklets?

    During the gun show, does an anti-gun group have freedom of speech to shout anti-gun chants as they do a conga line up and down the aisles?

    Still, your point is well-taken that if they restrict entry based on an individual's right, then a public group should be able to restrict any other right or combination thereof during a leased event.

    My suspicion though is that the court might interpret this rule to say that public land must be rent-able by all but that groups have reasonable rights to privacy when holding events.

  12. #12
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    As I said, I "tend" to agree with the thought.

    Let's keep asking questions.....

    If you are having your family reunion on public land can you restrict access to family members?

    Can you have a prayer breakfast and expect that nobody will roll out a prayer rug and begin to chant prayers to Allah?

    While celebrating your grandson's birthday is it okay for Hare Krishna's to wander through trying to get a donation for their flowers and booklets?

    During the gun show, does an anti-gun group have freedom of speech to shout anti-gun chants as they do a conga line up and down the aisles?

    Still, your point is well-taken that if they restrict entry based on an individual's right, then a public group should be able to restrict any other right or combination thereof during a leased event.

    My suspicion though is that the court might interpret this rule to say that public land must be rent-able by all but that groups have reasonable rights to privacy when holding events.
    I would love to see the anti's do a conga line down the isle of a gun show.....I would even pay to see that....

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    I expect that in the future the table rental agreements will include a bolded condition that the vendor/table holder agrees not to possess any firearms that are not zip tied, and shall not possess any loaded weapons. That condition is already in table rental agreements for most shows throughout the country.

    It will also likely include a provision that violation of any of these conditions violates the entire rental agreement between the gun show promoter and the vendor/table holder, and the vendor/table holder agrees to leave the show if the show promoter, in his sole discretion, determines there is a violation. Then they'll be able to ask the vendor/table holder to leave, and it'll become enforceable by trespass on refusal.

    Putting it in terms of contract law rather than a rights issue changes the equation for law enforcement - even though it is a civil matter, which LEO's are to avoid becoming involved in - trespass is a pretty bright line where they are empowered to act.

    The first time any such conditions (or the ejection from the show) are challenged in court, all the issues about state preemption and gun shows at the fairgrounds, state law being incorporated into all contracts(including those between the county and promoters, between promoters and vendors/table holders, and between the promoter and the public seeking to attend), whether the promoter's conditions are void as contrary to state law or allowable under some kind of "temporary exclusive use" lease, and the First Amendment issue of whether the conditions are a prior restraint on free speech for the OC cause on public property, will all come out and be decided.

    I only hope that in the event a court decides OC is allowed at events at the fairgrounds, whether public, quasi-private or private, it doesn't mean the end of gun shows there because the liability insurance makes it cost-prohibitive for gun show promoters.

    In that case, I hope OC'ers would decide to pick other battles so the interests of the entire gun community are furthered by having gun shows, and exercise free market principles by choosing not to attend so all the other gun enthusiasts can still have gun shows.

    If only more gun shows could be held on private property, like empty grocery stores, we could avoid this problem entirely without stepping on anyone's rights.
    Last edited by DCR; 04-23-2012 at 05:24 PM.

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    Another Gun Show this weekend at the Fair Grounds, is anyone going and is there going to be an Idaho Open Carry booth?

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