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Thread: Experts say rigorous training needed to prepare gun owners, MkeJS (above the fold).

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Experts say rigorous training needed to prepare gun owners, MkeJS (above the fold).

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wiscons...147470165.html
    Quote Originally Posted by MJS
    Unlike citizens gaining a concealed carry permit, law enforcement officers and military personnel go through rigorous training programs so they know the ramifications of pulling the trigger.
    Comments http://www.jsonline.com/news/wiscons...rt=newestfirst

  2. #2
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Pretty sure that sitting in a class room for 15 hours, listening to a man drone on and on about the million dollar legal defense for an SD did plenty warn me of the hazards with pulling the trigger.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    was an interesting article until they extensively wove multiple paragraphs about FL's T/M shooting and tying that incident to other state shooting into the story...and then off on the 'bad' laws of CD, make my day, stand...ad nausm.

    sigh

    wabbit

    PS is the poor worman in the foto in pain? look at her facial expression...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 04-15-2012 at 08:32 AM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Didn't read the article. I've seen far too many of that sort already.

    Bottom line is that learning to shoot and handle a gun are relatively simple things. Almost anyone can do that in a fairly short time.

    The rest, learning when to shoot, when not to shoot and all of the other things that are a part of good judgment and interpersonal relationships take a lot more time. None of those things are limited to the use of a gun. Learning good judgment and being willing to exercise the same has to be the theme of one's whole life.

    Most of the screams demanding extensive "training" seem to spring from the desire of some to be part of an exclusive club, or to limit the choices of others one way or another. The fact is that most ordinary people who actually do manage to use a gun for self defense have little or no such "training" at all... just the will and the means to survive.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Am I not correct that the Police are only required to qualify twice a year with their firearm....I "qualify" at minimum once a month!!
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Odd there is no legal requirement for a cop to undergo any training at all. Show me the statues that require this? There are none.

  7. #7
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    Am I not correct that the Police are only required to qualify twice a year with their firearm....I "qualify" at minimum once a month!!
    "Qualify?" By what criteria? To satisfy whom? Statistically, most "cops" are lousy shots and many are seriously negligent. Their "training" is either no help or irrelevant.

    If you choose to shoot (by whatever standards) and at whatever interval, it has nothing to do with what some self appointed "experts" decide is "needed" for anyone else. I'm glad you train that much, by whatever standards seem good to you. Others will have different needs and standards.

    The point is that very little formal or professional training is actually required for ordinary people to successfully and safely keep or carry guns for self defense. Otherwise there would be a great many people NOT being successful, or harming themselves and others with guns negligently - ... and that is simply not the case.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    Didn't read the article. I've seen far too many of that sort already.

    Bottom line is that learning to shoot and handle a gun are relatively simple things. Almost anyone can do that in a fairly short time.

    The rest, learning when to shoot, when not to shoot and all of the other things that are a part of good judgment and interpersonal relationships take a lot more time. None of those things are limited to the use of a gun. Learning good judgment and being willing to exercise the same has to be the theme of one's whole life.

    Most of the screams demanding extensive "training" seem to spring from the desire of some to be part of an exclusive club, or to limit the choices of others one way or another. The fact is that most ordinary people who actually do manage to use a gun for self defense have little or no such "training" at all... just the will and the means to survive.


    Actually, I think it has 2-parts.
    1) make it difficult enough/enough of a pain in the ass, that enough folks just wont bother-thus, exluding folks that way.
    2) for those who do subject themselves to it, voluntarily, it's yet another way for a State to make $$ in fees, handling fees, license fees, fees for the licensing of "instructors" and "schools", and all that crap-ol-a.
    Apart from some professions -(Dr.s, Brain-Surgeons, etc.) the whole "license" scam is just that- a scam, to make $$$ of the people.

  9. #9
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Actually, I think it has 2-parts.
    1) make it difficult enough/enough of a pain in the ass, that enough folks just wont bother-thus, exluding folks that way.
    2) for those who do subject themselves to it, voluntarily, it's yet another way for a State to make $$ in fees, handling fees, license fees, fees for the licensing of "instructors" and "schools", and all that crap-ol-a.
    Apart from some professions -(Dr.s, Brain-Surgeons, etc.) the whole "license" scam is just that- a scam, to make $$$ of the people.
    There is that part too in some places. I teach basic pistol and self defense. I don't make much more than the material costs from the classes. The "state" is not involved in any of our firearms training here, thank goodness. No "licenses" required at all.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    I'd bet these same experts would howl and scream if we required them to get a license and extensive training to practice free speech. And be trained to properly right and use punctuation, grammar, and such. Too many seem to what to restrict our 2nd Amendment rights but will not stand for the same thing to be applied to the 1st Amendment.

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    They fail to mention that police officers have many more known negligent discharges every year than citizens, they kill many more innocent people every year than citizens do, and they have a higher accident rate with weapons than citizens do. There are less than a million Leo's, and over 90,000,000 citizens who own firearms, probably double that when you count people who live in a house with firearms.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimbercarrier View Post
    I'd bet these same experts would howl and scream if we required them to get a license and extensive training to practice free speech. And be trained to properly right and use punctuation, grammar, and such. Too many seem to what to restrict our 2nd Amendment rights but will not stand for the same thing to be applied to the 1st Amendment.
    KimberCarrier, your 1st Amendment rights are revoked. You misspelled "write."
    Last edited by Eeyore; 04-16-2012 at 01:10 AM.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    KimberCarrier, your 1st Amendment rights are revoked. You misspelled "write."
    Eeyore, your First Amendment rights are revoked. You used quotation marks to discuss the word write, instead of italicizing it.

    http://grammar.about.com/od/il/g/italterm.htm
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-16-2012 at 01:28 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Kimber, Eeyore and Citizen:

    Your First Amendment rights are revoked because I am offended.

    That's how it is supposed to be done.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    skidmark,

    Your First Amendment rights are revoked because you desired to be offended by protected speech.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    skidmark,

    Your First Amendment rights are revoked because you desired to be offended by protected speech.
    Now that is the first acceptable reason mentioned for revoking a right. Not that I am guilty of unreasonable and irrational demands for things to go "my way or the highway" or anything. But it's an acceptable reason - if applied within reason.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  17. #17
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quite reasonable....in a reasonable sort of way.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  18. #18
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    There are less than a million Leo's,
    Wrong. There are a million armed federal law enforcement agents alone. I posted the data within the year for armed federal agents.

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    As I understand it, they intend to use "extensive training", with its attendant costs and inconveniences, as a form of poll tax. Too bad they are rarely honest enough to admit it when directly questioned.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    DANGER...DANGER...DANGER WILL ROBINSON....
    PERSONAL OPINION, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK


    It is my personal opinion that firearms and firearms safety should be taught in the public school system. Not as a sport, like baseball or hocky, but a real core skill. Like reading or mathematics. It should be in early middle school and uniform in its instruction. Just saying.
    My Mother taught me starting at age seven.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  21. #21
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    [B]It is my personal opinion that firearms and firearms safety should be taught in the public school system. Not as a sport, like baseball or hocky, but a real core skill. Like reading or mathematics. It should be in early middle school and uniform in its instruction. Just saying. My Mother taught me starting at age seven.
    Same I presume for sex education, your momma taught you but the government must teach it now? There are no "public schools" but government schools and private schools only.

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    Regular Member BionicRooster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    DANGER...DANGER...DANGER WILL ROBINSON....
    PERSONAL OPINION, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK


    It is my personal opinion that firearms and firearms safety should be taught in the public school system. Not as a sport, like baseball or hocky, but a real core skill. Like reading or mathematics. It should be in early middle school and uniform in its instruction. Just saying.
    My Mother taught me starting at age seven.
    +1

    I couldn't agree more.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    It is my personal opinion that firearms and firearms safety should be taught in the public school system. Not as a sport, like baseball or hocky, but a real core skill. Like reading or mathematics. It should be in early middle school and uniform in its instruction. Just saying.
    My Mother taught me starting at age seven.
    Oh yes, let's trust the almighty federal government to create a uniform curriculum to teach people about a fundamental, Constitutional right. What could possibly go wrong with that?
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member BionicRooster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Oh yes, let's trust the almighty federal government to create a uniform curriculum to teach people about a fundamental, Constitutional right. What could possibly go wrong with that?
    Good point... Murphy's Law anyone?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Wrong. There are a million armed federal law enforcement agents alone. I posted the data within the year for armed federal agents.
    Guess my Criminal Justice Book that was revised last year is lying to me. Can you lead me to where I can find this information?

    Edit: Approximately 119,000 armed federal officers. Approximately 900,000 state, city, county armed officers.

    Cite.: Department of Justice. USDOJ.GOV. Web. April, 16 2012
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 04-16-2012 at 05:34 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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