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Thread: So there I was... (shots fired.. Holland Road in Virginia Beach)

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    So there I was... (shots fired.. Holland Road in Virginia Beach)

    Nice and asleep in my bed at 1:30AM, when suddenly there was three shots fired just infront of my house. Woke me up quick, jumped up grabed my gun, racked the slide. My wife was ok and calling 911, so I checked on my son. He was thankfully still sleeping (kid could sleep through an earth quake). I peered out my window to see an empty street but heard three more shots fired further down the road. Shortly after that two more were heard. I noticed my neighbor walking outside checking his house. I grabed my mag light and decided to do the same. No bullet holes where noticed. I met up with my neighbor and while confirming eachothers stories we heard two more shots. So far that's a total of 10. We continued to look around cautiously as two cops speed down the street. After they passed we found three 9mm shells in the street. We made sure not to touch them as my neighbor grabbed some chemlights to mark the locations and call 911 to inform them. Shortly after that they showed up and collected the casings. They asked us to infrom our neighbors and to ask them to look for any damage to report so it can be documented. Unfortunately it looks like this wreckless criminal will stay free for another day, but I dare him to do it again and stick around. Aside from the cops, he also has 4 armed concerned citicizens keeping a closer eye out for that ass hole. If anybody else lives near 'the lakes' off of Holland Road in Virginia Beach on the Riverbend Rd and Woodburne Drive area keep an eye out and stay safe.

    I know this isn't directly related to OC but those living in that area should be aware if they are not already.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Regular Member Flippercon's Avatar
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    That is close enough to home! Thanks for the heads up and stay safe
    Last edited by Flippercon; 04-16-2012 at 10:48 AM.

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    Why in the world would you go outside, even if you are armed, and expose yourself to potential harm?!? Much safer to stay INSIDE where you and your family are safe, call 911 (which you did) and let the police do their job. What if you had actually confronted the perp?!? What then? You would have been considered the agressor, if you survived the encounter. Having a gun does NOT make one invincible! It is not any citizen's job to run down and round up the bad guys, that's why we have police. And no, I am not a coward, just a gun owner with quite a bit of common sense. If I hear gunfire near my home, I would get my gun, call 911 and stay inside where I could defend myself and home if they tried to enter. I would have called my neighbors, not gone outside to talk to them. Please be more careful in the future, playing Rambo could get you killed. Just my opinion.
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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    As a suggestion for the future, I wouldn't advise walking out of the house, into the unknown with a handgun in the dark after a shots fired situation. You can look for bullet holes in the morning.
    James Reynolds

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    As a suggestion for the future, I wouldn't advise walking out of the house, into the unknown with a handgun in the dark after a shots fired situation. You can look for bullet holes in the morning.
    I'd be looking to put a few holes in someone shooting at my house...BIG HOLES!

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Why in the world would you go outside, even if you are armed, and expose yourself to potential harm?!? Much safer to stay INSIDE where you and your family are safe, call 911 (which you did) and let the police do their job. What if you had actually confronted the perp?!? What then? You would have been considered the agressor, if you survived the encounter. Having a gun does NOT make one invincible! It is not any citizen's job to run down and round up the bad guys, that's why we have police. And no, I am not a coward, just a gun owner with quite a bit of common sense. If I hear gunfire near my home, I would get my gun, call 911 and stay inside where I could defend myself and home if they tried to enter. I would have called my neighbors, not gone outside to talk to them. Please be more careful in the future, playing Rambo could get you killed. Just my opinion.
    I was not outside to look for a fight. Nor was I looking to round up the criminals. "I peered out my window to see an empty street but heard three more shots fired further down the road. Shortly after that two more were heard." It was only when I felt the threat had passed that I decided to proceed outside. I did not state that I was out there trying to chase down anybody. Was it the safest choice in the world probably not. I was being cautious, and very alert to my surroundings, always aware of an escape route just like I have been trained. I understand my actions are not what you would chose to do, but I would rather have the option to confront the situation outside the home before they are in my house. Which is too close to my family for my comfort. By saying that I am in no way saying I was running out there to find the perp but rather if he were to come back I would have the possibility to keep the threat further away from my family.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'd be looking to put a few holes in someone shooting at my house...BIG HOLES!
    He was in a car as far as I can tell and I sure as hell wasn't going to go looking for him. So far nobody has found any holes in anything which would suggest to me that he was shooting in the air which is even worse. God only knows where those rounds landed.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Hey Ruby....did you ever hear any real people say "Perp"?

    It's like "Groovy" . Outside of hip dude politicians and the Partridge family, I never heard it come up.

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    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Why in the world would you go outside, ... playing Rambo could get you killed. Just my opinion.
    This sounds like quite the opportunity to break out the old 12 gauge (my ADT system) and hope to see someone shooting. I would've done the same given this situation, he wouldn't get another chance to fire upon my house and sleeping children.
    Last edited by The Airframer; 04-16-2012 at 01:31 PM.
    It's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it...

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Hey Ruby....did you ever hear any real people say "Perp"?

    It's like "Groovy" . Outside of hip dude politicians and the Partridge family, I never heard it come up.
    I had a social conversation with a local detective about some recent incidents, and his word of choice was "the offender."

    TFred

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Airframer View Post
    This sounds like quite the opportunity to break out the old 12 gauge (my ADT system) and hope to see someone shooting. I would've done the same given this situation, he wouldn't get another chance to fire upon my house and sleeping children.
    This is my point, not everybody would react the same way, The Airframer and I would react the same way. Maybe it's because we are both Airframers, maybe not, but the biggest point is that I have my family in mind, and that's that. I did not start this thread to have a conversation about how to have better handled the situation, but to rather inform those who live close to that area that may not have heard the shots. I'm not saying I didn't expect any 'well I would have' comments, but who wouldn't hope not see any of them sometimes ya know.

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I had a social conversation with a local detective about some recent incidents, and his word of choice was "the offender."

    TFred
    I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I have a run in like this.
    Last edited by MagiK_SacK; 04-16-2012 at 01:56 PM. Reason: grammer
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    . I'm not saying I didn't expect any 'well I would have' comments, but who wouldn't hope not see any of them sometimes ya know.

    You have to expect the armchair quarterbacking.



    I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I have a run in like this.

    Actually, TFred was responding to me making fun of Ruby's Adam 12 lingo.
    Proshooter is pretty savvy and is only going to give safe and sane advice, but I know him, and damned if I'd want to go shooting in front of his house.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I had a social conversation with a local detective about some recent incidents, and his word of choice was "the offender."

    TFred
    What? They are no longer "alleged"?

    I guess we are all guilty until proved otherwise.

    And that goes for the OP and everybody else - how were thaose sounds verified as "shots" as opposed to any of a myriad of other possibilities? And how did the OP verify that the items seen on the street were in fact shell casings that were configured for 9mm cartridges? All of those things are [u]alleged[/b] to be what is described until appropriately documented. [/tongue from cheek]

    I can sympathize with the OP. My neighborhood, although "better than it used to be" still has enough alleged illegal activity to support the supposition that some of the sounds heard might be gunfire. But lately the construction equipment place across the street has been dropping a lot of large panels of both wooden and metal construction - I am fortunate that I can look out a window and see if they are off-loading stuff in the yard and thus more inclined to think that was the source of the noise. Of course, they do not drop stuff at 1 AM.

    Also, for some reason nobody seems inclined to even run their thumpa-thumpa speakers when driving past my place. Somebody suggested it might be because I often sit out by the back door cleaning my shotgun, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

    stay safe.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Also, for some reason nobody seems inclined to even run their thumpa-thumpa speakers when driving past my place. Somebody suggested it might be because I often sit out by the back door cleaning my shotgun, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    "Alleged" is only for TV shows and journalists, not very useful in everyday life.
    Be safe, be prepared, and carry on!

    Alle Ihre Basisstation jetzt zu uns gehören

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    Also, for some reason nobody seems inclined to even run their thumpa-thumpa speakers when driving past my place. Somebody suggested it might be because I often sit out by the back door cleaning my shotgun, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.
    I've seen a picture of you.
    Somehow Santa with a shotgun is a disturbing proposition.

    But I'll have to try the front-porch pistol cleaning sessions this summer & see if word gets around to the criminals in the area that they should stay away. Most neighbors already know I carry.
    The only ones making moon eyes at me are the ones who are also making trouble, & they've generally been very polite & cooperative when I (also very politely) ask them to modify their behavior.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I've seen a picture of you.
    Somehow Santa with a shotgun is a disturbing proposition.

    .
    At least he isn't pointing his finger!


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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Actually, TFred was responding to me making fun of Ruby's Adam 12 lingo.
    I know I just responded because I used it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    What? They are no longer "alleged"?

    I guess we are all guilty until proved otherwise.

    And that goes for the OP and everybody else - how were thaose sounds verified as "shots" as opposed to any of a myriad of other possibilities? And how did the OP verify that the items seen on the street were in fact shell casings that were configured for 9mm cartridges? All of those things are [u]alleged[/b] to be what is described until appropriately documented. [/tongue from cheek]

    I can sympathize with the OP. My neighborhood, although "better than it used to be" still has enough alleged illegal activity to support the supposition that some of the sounds heard might be gunfire. But lately the construction equipment place across the street has been dropping a lot of large panels of both wooden and metal construction - I am fortunate that I can look out a window and see if they are off-loading stuff in the yard and thus more inclined to think that was the source of the noise. Of course, they do not drop stuff at 1 AM.

    Also, for some reason nobody seems inclined to even run their thumpa-thumpa speakers when driving past my place. Somebody suggested it might be because I often sit out by the back door cleaning my shotgun, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

    stay safe.
    Well if we are talking in legal terms then alleged is correct. I am possitive with every part of my being that the alleged noise and the alleged casings found were gun shots, and would contest anybody that were to say otherwise. I know you aren't badgering, so don't take that statement the wrong way.

    Quote Originally Posted by WOD View Post
    "Alleged" is only for TV shows and journalists, not very useful in everyday life.
    +1 I'm no good at the legal stuff. I guess that is why I should never talk to the police.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Why in the world would you go outside, even if you are armed, and expose yourself to potential harm?!? Much safer to stay INSIDE where you and your family are safe, call 911 (which you did) and let the police do their job. What if you had actually confronted the perp?!? What then? You would have been considered the agressor, if you survived the encounter. Having a gun does NOT make one invincible! It is not any citizen's job to run down and round up the bad guys, that's why we have police. And no, I am not a coward, just a gun owner with quite a bit of common sense. If I hear gunfire near my home, I would get my gun, call 911 and stay inside where I could defend myself and home if they tried to enter. I would have called my neighbors, not gone outside to talk to them. Please be more careful in the future, playing Rambo could get you killed. Just my opinion.
    I have to say that I disagree with this mentality. There is a difference between the vigilante who goes out to search for crimes or, even further, goes out to search for bad people who aren't even threatening imminent harm and the upstanding citizen who responds to criminal activity that finds him. In this case, the man shooting in the street was the initiator of force, even going out to confront him directly would only be force in response. If citizens were more proactive in defending themselves and their neighbors, criminals would have to fear all decent citizens, not just the police. This is how we could make a serious dent in crime. Criminals get away with so much because people are too scared to "stick their neck out". This mentality allows many more crimes to be committed and therefore there are many more victims. So deciding not to "play Rambo" could get you killed.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatTimeIsIt? View Post
    In this case, the man shooting in the street was the initiator of force, even going out to confront him directly would only be force in response. .
    Actually, in my best courtroom interpretation of legaleez, the correct term would be STOOPID.

    Someone please explain to the man in the white hat, exactly when you are allowed to use deadly force in Virginia. I'm off duty.
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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatTimeIsIt? View Post
    I have to say that I disagree with this mentality. There is a difference between the vigilante who goes out to search for crimes or, even further, goes out to search for bad people who aren't even threatening imminent harm and the upstanding citizen who responds to criminal activity that finds him. In this case, the man shooting in the street was the initiator of force, even going out to confront him directly would only be force in response. If citizens were more proactive in defending themselves and their neighbors, criminals would have to fear all decent citizens, not just the police. This is how we could make a serious dent in crime. Criminals get away with so much because people are too scared to "stick their neck out". This mentality allows many more crimes to be committed and therefore there are many more victims. So deciding not to "play Rambo" could get you killed.
    What is sad is that I am more afraid of sticking my neck out against our "JUSTICE" system than the criminal.

    "He needed killing!" should be a valid defense. :-)
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 04-16-2012 at 05:24 PM.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Why in the world would you go outside, even if you are armed, and expose yourself to potential harm?!?
    Yes the po-po could come and shoot at you for having a gun on, in the middle of night after a call of shots fired. Plus those bullets could come at you, I would be hiding in my house.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Actually, in my best courtroom interpretation of legaleez, the correct term would be STOOPID.

    Someone please explain to the man in the white hat, exactly when you are allowed to use deadly force in Virginia. I'm off duty.
    It depends on if the other fellow fit the Virginia "He needed Killing" exemption

    First, you have to give it the legal test:

    1.Did I know him?
    2.If yes. did I like him?
    3.If the answer to 1 was no, would I have liked him if I did know him?
    4. Did he owe me any money?

    That concludes the first part.

    Part 2. Does he need killing or just a good beating?

    That concludes the entire legal test and you can proceed.
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-16-2012 at 05:39 PM.

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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Why in the world would you go outside, even if you are armed, and expose yourself to potential harm?!? Much safer to stay INSIDE where you and your family are safe, call 911 (which you did) and let the police do their job. What if you had actually confronted the perp?!? What then? You would have been considered the agressor, if you survived the encounter. Having a gun does NOT make one invincible! It is not any citizen's job to run down and round up the bad guys, that's why we have police. And no, I am not a coward, just a gun owner with quite a bit of common sense. If I hear gunfire near my home, I would get my gun, call 911 and stay inside where I could defend myself and home if they tried to enter. I would have called my neighbors, not gone outside to talk to them. Please be more careful in the future, playing Rambo could get you killed. Just my opinion.
    Taking responsiblility for your own protection comes to mind. NOT relying upon someone paid (poorly) to respond to problems. Granted, going outside may be an issue, but it is his right to do so and thus maintain his families security as he sees fit.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Someone please explain to the man in the white hat, exactly when you are allowed to use deadly force in Virginia. I'm off duty.
    This draws me to the explanation that Ed had put out during the discussion of 'Castle Doctrine' and this is it. Mind you it has been shortened to remove the less relavent Castle Doctrine information.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    VCDL's LOOK AT THE CASTLE DOCTRINE FOR VIRGINIA

    Here is a summary of the current self-defense law in Virginia:

    Virginia is a stand-your-ground state. But not just in your "castle," but EVERYWHERE you might be. As long as you are not "part of the problem," you can stand your ground and defend yourself. If you end up killing your assailant, it is considered a "justifiable homicide." If you are part of the problem, say you yelled an expletive at someone who cut you off in traffic, and you are attacked, then you must retreat as far as you can, indicate you have given up the fight, and only if the assailant keeps up the attack, may you defend yourself. In that case if the assailant dies, it is considered an "excusable homicide." Also, you can only use deadly force to protect yourself or others when you reasonably fear death OR grievous bodily injury. You CANNOT use deadly force to protect property or against a trespasser.
    Being as I was not part of the problem and I feared death OR grievous bodily injury for my family and neighbors. I feel I wouldn't have been in the wrong had the situation arose that would have required me to use deadly force. As stated before I was not out there looking for a fight nor was I running around with my gun in my hand pointing it at every noise I heard. I had my gun concealed as to not cause any problems when the police showed up. I just wanted to know that the threat had passed and if it had not have had the option to stop the threat before reaching my house.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    Yes the po-po could come and shoot at you for having a gun on, in the middle of night after a call of shots fired. Plus those bullets could come at you, I would be hiding in my house.
    Thankfully I have a CHP which would allow me to conceal my gun to avoid this scenario. I am not stupid enough to have my wife call 911 due to gun fire and run outside OC or with gun in hand, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Griz View Post
    Taking responsiblility for your own protection comes to mind. NOT relying upon someone paid (poorly) to respond to problems. Granted, going outside may be an issue, but it is his right to do so and thus maintain his families security as he sees fit.
    It's nice to know that there are people out there who understand that how people respond when the need to protect family arises and varies from person to person. Thank you.
    Last edited by MagiK_SacK; 04-16-2012 at 08:50 PM. Reason: rephrasing to clarify
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  25. #25
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    This draws me to the explanation that Ed had put out during the discussion of 'Castle Doctrine' and this is it. Mind you it has been shortened to remove the less relavent Castle Doctrine information.

    Ok, I'll make this easy. I'm sure that some of our venerable lawyer types will be along to correct me if I've missed anything...


    You may use force, up to and including deadly force if you reasonably believe that there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself, or another innocent person; provided that you are in a place that you are legally allowed to be, and you are not the one who caused the problem......

    A reasonable person, under the circumstances you described, would call 911 and hunker down in their house. They would not arm themselves, and wander out in to an area which was just riddled with gunfire. That tells me that you are not in fear, and in my non-lawyer opinion, I think you lose the protection of the "reasonable man theory". Me thinks a jury would say that you went looking for trouble....
    James Reynolds

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