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Thread: To carry a weapon or not to carry a weapon. That is the question

  1. #1
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    To carry a weapon or not to carry a weapon. That is the question

    First of all this is my first time posting here and for good reason. Allow me to introduce myself. I am former Marine Corp infantryman with a security forces secondary MOS. I did my service in the 1980's and I am now in my 40's and live happily knowing that ONE of my privileges is to store, use, and maintain a weapon of my choosing. I have recently extended my privilege by obtaining a concealed license for myself, my wife and my 23 year old daughter. I hold sacred the right to bear arms for the privilege to keep my oath to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, here or abroad. I will fulfill that oath the day they lay me down.

    I do not presume for all civilians out there to understand what it is like to be a part of something so much bigger then yourself, and some people may not understand what it is like to choose that lifestyle where one day you are alive and next day you are not. But know this; the life style I chose is not for me, it is for you.

    There is a criminal element in today's society, for whatever reason known only to them, has become an element that holds no fear of death by enforcers or patriots of a rational society of law abiding citizens, veterans or public servants. They neither fear death, nor are they afraid to kill you without remorse. Many personal opinions may attribute to this behavior, but what matters, is that it does exist.

    I carry a weapon open or concealed because I know whats on the other side of the fence, so to speak. Carry because you are committed to be a patriot and you believe in something much bigger then ourselves without reservation to do good, remembering that a patriot does believe in an honest government and justice system. Hold yourself to an oath and do it for all the right reasons. If you carry for the purpose of personal rebellion then leave your weapon at home. Your not helping any one reputation or building any type of trust with law enforcement or the community. Every time I see a news story about someone being stubborn with police while carrying a weapon, I slowly see our privilege slipping away in a bureau of red-tape and general mistrust, slandered by an over eager news media looking for today's story to make one individual a little more famous at the expense of one more American.

    Question your true intentions and be honest with yourself. Our you carrying for the right reason?

    Do not be a disappointment, because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

    God bless and stay strong.

  2. #2
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paracharlie View Post
    Every time I see a news story about someone being stubborn with police while carrying a weapon, I slowly see our privilege slipping away in a bureau of red-tape and general mistrust, slandered by an over eager news media looking for today's story to make one individual a little more famous at the expense of one more American.
    I guess that would depend on one's definition of "stubborn."

    I bet the police and media think the Madison 5 were "stubborn."

  3. #3
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I OC/CC because I like the feel of cold-steel strapped over my shoulder. Considering my family, and me walk regularily, at times not walking home until the evening, it is a down payment to a force that I hope to never use.

    Welcome to the forum.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  4. #4
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    If exercising the your right not to answer questions posed by police is being stubborn, I disagree. Carrying as a purely selfish act for only your personal protection to the exclusion of others is still the exercise of a protected right, stubborn or not.

  5. #5
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    I OC for two reasons. First and foremost, I OC for defense and deterrence. Secondly, I OC to promote the peaceful carry of arms and normalize the presence of firearms in our society.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by paracharlie View Post

    I carry a weapon open or concealed because I know whats on the other side of the fence, so to speak. Carry because you are committed to be a patriot and you believe in something much bigger then ourselves without reservation to do good, remembering that a patriot does believe in an honest government and justice system.
    A patriot believes "in an honest government and justice system"? A patriot is gullible and ignorant of history?

    Perhaps you meant that a patriot does believe in doing the work to keep an honest government and justice system... honest.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 04-16-2012 at 11:50 PM.

  7. #7
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    "You do not become a "dissident" just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society." (Vaclav Havel, The Power of the Powerless)

    Civilians? Us versus them? Are you a member of Oath Keepers, have you reaffirmed your oath?

    I pray you fulfill your oath before you lay down, take one with you. Dying quietly is what they want of us.

    Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth.

  8. #8
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    "..I slowly see our privilege slipping away.."

    It's not a privilege, it's a right.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    "..I slowly see our privilege slipping away.."

    It's not a privilege, it's a right.
    Surprised you are the only other person to have mentioned that.

    I kept seeing a lot of privilege where I should have seen right.


    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    .....ONE of my privileges is to store, use, and maintain a weapon of my choosing.....I have recently extended my privilege..... I hold sacred the right to bear arms for the privilege to keep my oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.....

    .....I do not presume for all civilians out there to understand what it is like to be a part of something so much bigger then yourself.....
    Maybe, and I am merely speculating, paracharlie considers it a privilege to have the opportunity to exercise his 'right'.

    recognizing and then understanding the concept of 'being privileged to be a American' can be a challenge sometimes.

    Being priveleged to have the physical and mentall capacity to exercise their rights.

    When you have served in the armed forces, some folks come to realize this and some folks do not. As civilians some folks 'get it', some do not.

    I got what paracharlie may have meant, or what I wanted him to mean, based on the fact that I 'get it'. I am privileged to have these rights, privileged to be able to exercise these unalienable rights,a great many folks are not as privileged as I am.

    If paracharlie sees the BoR as a set of privileges, well, he has come to the right place to get 'reeducated'. And the education has commenced.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
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    I have to be skeptical anytime a veteran tells me I owe them for my freedom. American military behavior around the globe has not done anything to make us free since 1893. If anything, our inability to mind our own business has put us at greater risk in CONUS than not.

    You want to support the troops? Bring them home soonest and send the Busheviks and Obama on an apology tour throughout the ME.

    That being said, I carry because I think it is immoral and presumptuous to outsource my self-defense to others without their consent.

    BTW, privilege is slave talk.
    Last edited by lysander6; 04-17-2012 at 11:18 AM.
    Gun Control is Mind Control.

    My Blog: http://zerogov.com/

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Since 1893? OK.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  13. #13
    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Since 1893? OK.
    One could contend that the global push beyond our contiguous borders began then with the annexation of Hawaii in 1893 but I am more than happy to move the date backward if you know of another grand American enterprise before that time beyond our Western Hemisphere.
    Gun Control is Mind Control.

    My Blog: http://zerogov.com/

  14. #14
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    I Love My Guns http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/editor.html
    They represent self ownership, and true independence. They mark me as one who is responsible for myself and willing to risk everything to protect myself and others. It marks me as a free human being and not a slave. Slaves are not "allowed" to own and carry guns. Free people can't be stopped from doing so.

    I love my guns, and the liberty for which they stand.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  15. #15
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander6 View Post
    One could contend that the global push beyond our contiguous borders began then with the annexation of Hawaii in 1893 but I am more than happy to move the date backward if you know of another grand American enterprise before that time beyond our Western Hemisphere.
    So you rather us have waited for WWII to come to our shores before we joined the fight?

    Don't get me wrong, Britain and Russia fought off the Axis powers well. China...well, they fought. But to think that Japan and Germany wouldn't be knocking at the East and West door of the US if we hadn't intervened sooner is...idk, awfully hopeful.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  16. #16
    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    So you rather us have waited for WWII to come to our shores before we joined the fight?

    Don't get me wrong, Britain and Russia fought off the Axis powers well. China...well, they fought. But to think that Japan and Germany wouldn't be knocking at the East and West door of the US if we hadn't intervened sooner is...idk, awfully hopeful.
    I think I have steered this thread off-topic but am happy to respond but these are merely speculative counter-factuals. WWI is the midwife for WWII and one could say that the Bolsheviks would have been strangled in their cradle in Russia and the Versailles Treaty would not have created the condition for Hitler if Wilson had decided as he promised in his Prez campaign to mind his own business. We can go back further when Teddy made secret arrangements with the Japanese (his honorary Aryans) in the early 1900s to give them an Anglo-American green light to turn greater East Asia into a Japanese imperialist pond.

    I also think it is ludicrous to assume that the Germans with no blue water navy of merit or size, no long range range bomber capability and most important, insufficient manpower to occupy US territory could even get a foothold. Look what happened to the Japanese when they attempted a tiny lodgement in the Aleutians and this is with an American Army and Navy which did not stand up operationally or strategically until 1943. Whether the naval crisis at Guadalcanal or the pathetic showing at Kasserine in North Africa, the Germans never devoted more than one fifth of their Order of Battle to the Western theater in ETO as they had their hands full with the other totalitarian menace we were sleeping with, the Russians. Yet the political troika between Churchill, RedDR and Stalin gave us a more peaceful and hopeful world in our subsidy and succor of the Communist state during the war?

    I am happy to discuss this further but we should do it offline because we (I) have hijacked the thread and that is bad manners on my part. My forum is located here if you would like to start a thread and I will happily host it: http://zerogov.com/forum/

    The War to Save Joseph Stalin or WWII gave America its gargantuan Federal government, the withholding tax for income taxes, the death knell for local/state/regional allegiance of the citizenry and the green light to meddle that has made us the national security state that it is today.
    Gun Control is Mind Control.

    My Blog: http://zerogov.com/

  17. #17
    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    I OC for two reasons. First and foremost, I OC for defense and deterrence. Secondly, I OC to promote the peaceful carry of arms and normalize the presence of firearms in our society.
    I'm with you bro.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    "..I slowly see our privilege slipping away.."

    It's not a privilege, it's a right.
    I seen it the first time I reade it, but I figure he had something to say, and I understand what he is stating. He is likely using the word Privilege in the Right sense, a misnomer, but nothing to get worked-up over, IMO. I could've pounced on it in my fashion, but seeing as how Charlie is new here, and he was writing about how he feels, well, I figure a tampered-down response is in order.

    This page is a tough one when it comes to back-and-forth, and it takes some time for new people to really dig-in, and refine their ideas, and posts.

    Welcome to the forum Charlie.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-17-2012 at 08:28 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  19. #19
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    I have a friend of mine who has a quite a few pistols and yet he still doesn't have his CCL permit for Kansas! I keep telling him carrying with it unloaded is the most pointless way to carry for a self defense weapon. Also it being in the car and not being loaded is not my way of saying I'm protected. Last two pisols he bought I keep reminding him the CCL cost is cheaper than the two pistols he bought. I have ran out of ideas to convince him that getting the permit is the most important considering he's already loaded to the brim in firepower!
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

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    Ok, first I would like to apologize for the confusion I created. I wish I could have responded sooner, sorry. When I said privilege I was pertaining to my states laws that have a privilege system in place for self defense. Not to be confused with your god given right.
    My intent is to bring home to some, and I am thinking for those that I have seen in the media who got so wrapped up in their constitutional rights that they forgot to read their State and Local laws and their rights pertaining to those laws also.
    I can not give you a specific case out of respect. But I will give you an example of what I am talking about.
    Mr. Miller has decided that enough is enough with the crime in his area. He decides that it is time that he straps on his .44 and starts parading up and down his block with the hopes that people will notice him and say something to him so that he can preach his new found knowledge, having read the bill of rights for the first time in his life. With luck a neighbor across the street asks him why hes carrying a gun. Mr. Miller starts yelling, "Because its my constitutional right". An argument persists with words slung back and forth. Another neighbor calls the police and says that there is a man with a gun yelling at another man. The police respond and ask the enraged Mr. Miller for his ID, but he refuses telling the officer that he doesn't have to show him his ID. The police officer has already assessed the situation and come to the rapid conclusion that for the fifth time today there is another combative citizen in his patrol area that he must deal with. He calls for assistance and 3 more squads show up, the situation heats up with Mr. Miller's adrenalin pumping along with the officers staring at Mr. Millers hands making sure he does not go for his .44.

    Mr. Miller tells the officer that he has the right to defend himself. This is true, everyone has the right, but will the state grant him immunity under the self defense law due to the fact that he provoked the situation and became unprivileged according to the self defense law. The officers decide that it is time Mr. Miller is removed from the area and taken to a safe area downtown to cool off, and is later released.

    Do you see the problem here?
    Did Mr. Miller openly carry his weapon for all the wrong reasons? No one denies that he has the right even the officer. They were only worried that he would be combative.

    Those neighbors will never forget that situation and probably will now and never openly except open carry in their way of thinking ever again. Mr. Miller caused a lot of damage for all of us that do carry for all the right reasons.

    See what I'm getting at? I hope you do, I really don't know how else to get that thought across.

    As far as the ccw license goes. I signed an agreement with the DOJ that I would produce my license upon request and if stopped by LE I would inform LE that I have a ccw. It is LE choice whether they want to temporarily relieve me of my weapon during the stop. Not sure that I totally agree with being disarmed temporarily because honestly, if the DOJ trusts me and I have passed the background check with a clean record why do I need to be disarmed temporarily? I needed to add that in there too, because that has been bothering me.
    Last edited by paracharlie; 04-18-2012 at 03:02 AM.

  21. #21
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by paracharlie View Post
    I signed an agreement with the DOJ that ... if stopped by LE I would inform LE that I have a ccw.
    Not in Wisconsin.

    Cite the section of Wisconsin Statutes Chapter 175 Miscellaneous Police Provisions, Subsection 175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon that requires a licensee "inform LE that I have a ccw[sic]."

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/175/60

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Not in Wisconsin.

    Cite the section of Wisconsin Statutes Chapter 175 Miscellaneous Police Provisions, Subsection 175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon that requires a licensee "inform LE that I have a ccw[sic]."

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/175/60
    (12) Maintenance, use, and publication of records by the department.
    (a) The department shall maintain a computerized record listing the names and the information specified in sub. (2m) (b) of all individuals who have been issued a license under this section and all individuals issued a certification card under s. 175.49 (3). Subject to par. (b) 1. b., neither the department nor any employee of the department may store, maintain, format, sort, or access the information in any way other than by the names, dates of birth, or sex of licensees or individuals or by the identification numbers assigned to licensees under sub. (2m) (b) 6.
    (b)
    1. A law enforcement officer may not request or be provided information under par. (a) concerning a specific individual except for one of the following purposes:
    a. To confirm that a license or certification card produced by an individual at the request of a law enforcement officer is valid.
    b. If an individual is carrying a concealed weapon and claims to hold a valid license issued under this section or a valid certification card issued under s. 175.49 (3) but does not have his or her license document or certification card, to confirm that the individual holds a valid license or certification card.
    c. To investigate whether an individual submitted an intentionally false statement under sub. (7) (b) or (15) (b) 2.
    d. To investigate whether an individual complied with sub. (14) (b) 3.
    2. A person who is a law enforcement officer in a state other than Wisconsin may request and be provided information under subd. 1. a. and b.

    This is actually vague because it does not say that in the law but you are informed by DOJ in the letter and the pamphlet that they send you with your card what to say and what to do, Interesting.
    Last edited by paracharlie; 04-18-2012 at 05:38 AM.

  23. #23
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by paracharlie View Post
    This is actually vague because it does not say that in the law but you are informed by DOJ in the letter and the pamphlet that they send you with your card what to say and what to do, Interesting.
    IOW there is no Wisconsin statute requiring you "inform". The DoJ FAQ and the DoJ note are not the law. We have only the rights that we defend.

    Wisconsin requires that you "display" on request only made with lawful authority in official capacity.

    Do you know that there is a Wisconsin specific sub-forum?

    Since you are evidently just learning the details of Wisconsin Statute law and the most likely cop interaction is due to a traffic "stop," I recommend reading the context of Wisc. Stats. Ch. 345, subsections 345.22 and 345.23, Vehicles -- Civil and Criminal Liability, Authority to Arrest Without a Warrant and Officer's Actions After Arrest Without a Warrant. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/345/III/22
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 04-18-2012 at 06:02 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    I OC for two reasons. First and foremost, I OC for defense and deterrence. Secondly, I OC to promote the peaceful carry of arms and normalize the presence of firearms in our society.
    Very well said!

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

  25. #25
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    A Nation of Cowards, Read and Learn

    (edited by scott58dh to focus on one main point )
    from, paracharlie,
    "There is a criminal element in today's society, for whatever reason known only to them, has become an element that holds no fear of death by enforcers or patriots of a rational society of law abiding citizens, veterans or public servants. They neither fear death, nor are they afraid to kill you without remorse. Many personal opinions may attribute to this behavior, but what matters, is that it does exist.

    I carry a weapon open or concealed because I know whats on the other side of the fence, so to speak.

    Question your true intentions and be honest with yourself. (ARE) you carrying for the right reason?

    God bless and stay strong."




    Being an RKBA Patriot myself, the best education comes from searching and finding answers to many issues on the topic, so here's one for you to start with,,,

    Jeffrey Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards" Click on link... http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

    Please DO NOT misinterpret said article as a hidden affront towards you, it is not, you my good RKBA Bro' are a Hero in my book for you Service to our GREAT country.

    I'm merely passing along some valuable info which I discovered when I chose to step up and join the RKBA Brotherhood.

    God Bless to You and Yours, Peace and RKBA Forever, Sincerely, Scott58dh
    Last edited by scott58dh; 04-19-2012 at 04:42 PM.

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