POLICE: Troy man arrested after carrying loaded rifle in downtown Birmingham

Hevymetal · Apr 23, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Education to the public, and to the police? Media coverage of open carry? The guy made a very public demonstration of the foolishness of our laws, in that one has to be 21 to get a handgun from a licensed dealer? Im speculating here, not wanting to put words in his mouth.

(sarcasm) At 18 your old enough to vote, go fight in a war and die for our country, buy a rifle, buy a shotgun, buy a handgun from a non-dealer but NOT able to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer. Makes perfect sense to me. (/sarcasm)

Glock9mmOldStyle · Apr 23, 2012

PDinDetroit said:
I have had a little fun commenting over there...

I plan on having some too. One note - not sure why Jim had to inject his not my style comment, but no harm I
Guess

If BPD continues this hardline stance maybe an organized repeat of what this young man did is in order? What say you all? If need be I will make the trip.

Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2

PDinDetroit · Apr 23, 2012

Glock9mmOldStyle said:
I plan on having some too. One note - not sure why Jim had to inject his not my style comment, but no harm I
Guess If BPD continues this hardline stance maybe an organized repeat of what this young man did is in order? What say you all? If need be I will make the trip.

Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2

It is not my "style" either as I have publicly posted many times, but I support the Right to do so. Being Honest should need no explanation and Jim's statement does not hurt the case but it does open the door for conversations to take place.

The City of Birmingham had a City Council meeting tonight, I thought about going but wanted to wait to see what will transpire shortly (that and my garden was ready to be tilled).

stainless1911 · Apr 23, 2012

I really don't have a problem OCing an M1A in an organised meet. I wont just go carry one around in the mall or anything, but Im game here.

Glock9mmOldStyle · Apr 23, 2012

PDinDetroit said:
It is not my "style" either as I have publicly posted many times, but I support the Right to do so. Being Honest should need no explanation and Jim's statement does not hurt the case but it does open the door for conversations to take place.

The City of Birmingham had a City Council meeting tonight, I thought about going but wanted to wait to see what will transpire shortly (that and my garden was ready to be tilled).

Was not asking you to explain, especially since unless you have control of jims mind how could you?

Good call on holding off until we see where this goes & good luck with the garden.

Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2

griffin · Apr 23, 2012

Legally I don't know how a young looking guy can come out of this over the cops. I'm guessing they can articulate age as an RAS and the chief and courts will back them up. It's not like if I were doing it. He was legal, but if I were him I would have cooperated more. At my age I would cooperate less. It's a personal decision.

Venator · Apr 24, 2012

griffin said:
Legally I don't know how a young looking guy can come out of this over the cops. I'm guessing they can articulate age as an RAS and the chief and courts will back them up. It's not like if I were doing it. He was legal, but if I were him I would have cooperated more. At my age I would cooperate less. It's a personal decision.

Not sure what you are saying here. There may be RAS for a stop and detain. But once his age was determined he should be free to go and his property returned. The man broke no laws by refusing to cooperate. The police have the power to take him in and determine his age, but once determined he was 18+ then they release him. No charges filed. This is the heart of the issue.

Xanaseyr · Apr 24, 2012

griffin said:
Legally I don't know how a young looking guy can come out of this over the cops. I'm guessing they can articulate age as an RAS and the chief and courts will back them up. It's not like if I were doing it. He was legal, but if I were him I would have cooperated more. At my age I would cooperate less. It's a personal decision.

If "He looks like he could be under 18" is cause for a good stop, how about "he looks like he could be a felon" or "he looks like he could be carrying with unlawful intent?"

Hevymetal · Apr 24, 2012

stainless1911 said:
I really don't have a problem OCing an M1A in an organised meet. I wont just go carry one around in the mall or anything, but Im game here.

"Not really my style either to OC a long gun day to day" but I agree if it was an organized event to show our support I'm game. Don't have an M1 so I guess my AR would have to do.

I would bet 20+ people walking down the street OC M1s in a show of support would get their attention.

PDinDetroit · Apr 24, 2012

Venator said:
Not sure what you are saying here. There may be RAS for a stop and detain. But once his age was determined he should be free to go and his property returned. The man broke no laws by refusing to cooperate. The police have the power to take him in and determine his age, but once determined he was 18+ then they release him. No charges filed. This is the heart of the issue.

+1

lapeer20m · Apr 24, 2012

And don't forget, he wasn't charged with underage possession of a firearm. Plus, they stole his property and have yet to return it to him Age isn't the issue.

I want to go watch in the courtroom as the prosecutor and officers involved get spanked hard.

I would also like to meet this gentleman.

mirussell · Apr 24, 2012

This will be my first post here but i have been a lurker for a long time. I both carry open and concealed . i really have no problem with those who open And here comes the but that you guys will flames me for but theres a time and place for every thing and open carrying a rifle downtown is not to smart yes it's his right I know lots of people that have no problem with people open carrying there pistols but draw the line at rifles if that hornets nest keeps getting stuck don't be surprised if it ends up stinging everyone in the ass all it will take is a couple bad things to happen and they'll end up doing away with all open carry sure those that support open carry is a couple 100 thousand strong so that leaves a couple million to vote against us . heck theres a township down that is having a vote to make illegal to shoot any kind of guns or any kind of projectiles in a residential area and 80% is considered residential and were not talking subdivisions but 5 plus Acers. Hell we can't even get everyone on board when they want to expand the pfz for those that carry concealed. do you really think they would have that hard of a time doing away with the open carry law.There you go flame away

stainless1911 · Apr 24, 2012

Xanaseyr said:
If "He looks like he could be under 18" is cause for a good stop, how about "he looks like he could be a felon" or "he looks like he could be carrying with unlawful intent?"

No, not without reasonable suspicion, or probable cause. Just exercising your right to carry a gun is neither.

stainless1911 · Apr 24, 2012

mirussell said:
This will be my first post here but i have been a lurker for a long time. I both carry open and concealed . i really have no problem with those who open And here comes the but that you guys will flames me for but theres a time and place for every thing and open carrying a rifle downtown is not to smart yes it's his right I know lots of people that have no problem with people open carrying there pistols but draw the line at rifles if that hornets nest keeps getting stuck don't be surprised if it ends up stinging everyone in the ass all it will take is a couple bad things to happen and they'll end up doing away with all open carry sure those that support open carry is a couple 100 thousand strong so that leaves a couple million to vote against us . heck theres a township down that is having a vote to make illegal to shoot any kind of guns or any kind of projectiles in a residential area and 80% is considered residential and were not talking subdivisions but 5 plus Acers. Hell we can't even get everyone on board when they want to expand the pfz for those that carry concealed. do you really think they would have that hard of a time doing away with the open carry law.There you go flame away

People arent as eager to flame you as you might think, although your grammar makes it hard to read your post.

You're right, there is a time and place for OC. Fir this man, this was the right time and place. The time, because he was protesting (1st amendment) his inability to obtain a pistol like other adults can. The right place, because he was obviously trying to get his point noticed. A basic fundamental right. Whit good is it for him to carry in his own yard behind a privacy fence?

As far as one person screwing it up for everyone else? History and practice have shown that exercising the right just makes it stronger, and easier for everyone else to do. We have not advanced our right to OC by talking to each other on these boards, with no action.

If people are trying to regulate the discharge of weapons in your area, then it is YOUR responsibility to get together with your lawmakers , your NRA people, the gun stores, hunters, property owners and gun owners in your area, and see to it that this does not happen. Coming here and starting a new thread on the subject might be a first step in your efforts. I suggest going to MGO, and doing the same thing in the general section. http://www.migunowners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=178

OC for ME · Apr 24, 2012

I guess the question is; can the state or political subdivisions make OC illegal in MI? If they can, then the 'he'll ruin it for everyone' argument can be made. If not, then the argument can not be made.

If it is a matter of whether or not LE will be more 'vigilant' regarding OCers, then the 'state' will need to weigh the cost vs. benefit of harassing OCers.

Politicians witnessing money going out to citizens as a result of LE getting their butts sued vs. money going to their pet projects may understand that LE is becoming a liability and may not tolerate their 'policing' practices.

Tucker6900 · Apr 24, 2012

OC for ME said:
I guess the question is; can the state or political subdivisions make OC illegal in MI? If they can, then the 'he'll ruin it for everyone' argument can be made. If not, then the argument can not be made.

If it is a matter of whether or not LE will be more 'vigilant' regarding OCers, then the 'state' will need to weigh the cost vs. benefit of harassing OCers.

Politicians witnessing money going out to citizens as a result of LE getting their butts sued vs. money going to their pet projects may understand that LE is becoming a liability and may not tolerate their 'policing' practices.

Im going to say No. Preemption forbids local units of government from regulating more than the state. OC is allowed by default in Michigan. Therefore, the local .gov cannot. The state could, I suppose, but I believe there is too much support for it, than against it.

aadvark · Apr 24, 2012

To ALL Whom are Concerned:

The Oakland County Prosecutors Office would be Foolish NOT to Follow The Guise of Michigan Public ACT 319 of 1990.

As it Stands, Michigan Law Allows Open Carry by Default.

Case Law under Michigan Penal Code 750.234(e) does NOT Support a Brandishing Violation for Peacefully Openly Carrying a Firearm.

In Fact, Open Carry while a Person goes about His Business a Foot, is The ONLY Way to Avoid a Violation of Michigan Penal Code 750.227.

There Exsists NO Evidence in This Case, based upon Biased Media Reports, to Indicate a Possible Violation of Michigan Penal Code 750.226.

Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica R. Cooper does NOT have a Case in My Opinion, and Odds are, in Light of The Grand Rapids Incident where a Man Openly Carried a Pistol into a School Building to Vote, together with This Incident, The Public and The Media are now made more Aware of it.

In Fact, The Michigan State Police Officer and The Birmingham Police Chief BOTH Confirmed The Legality of His Actions.

aadvark

Hyperion · Apr 24, 2012

aadvark said:
Case Law under Michigan Penal Code 750.234(e) does NOT Support a Brandishing Violation for Peacefully Openly Carrying a Firearm.

Aardvark: Do you have a case in mind. Just curious.

aadvark said:
Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica R. Cooper does NOT have a Case in My Opinion, and Odds are, in Light of The Grand Rapids Incident where a Man Openly Carried a Pistol into a School Building to Vote, together with This Incident, The Public and The Media are now made more Aware of it.

I'm not sure that the charges that have been brought are under State Law. If not, the county prosecutor is not involved in this matter.

Small_Arms_Collector · Apr 24, 2012

Hevymetal said:
"Not really my style either to OC a long gun day to day" but I agree if it was an organized event to show our support I'm game. Don't have an M1 so I guess my AR would have to do.

I would bet 20+ people walking down the street OC M1s in a show of support would get their attention.

I'm up for it to as long as I'm not the only one I have no problem carrying an AR, or AK through downtown Birmingham. Some one set a date, and time.

As for waiting to see how this turns out, it's already justified.

Illegally Detained: Yes
Illegally Arrested: Yes
Illegally confiscated Rifle: yes
Illegally imprisoned pending trial even after the facts are known, including admitted to by the police: yes

What are we waiting for?

stainless1911 · Apr 24, 2012

In order to conform with the rules of this forum, a LGOC meet (which I think is justified) should be scheduled through PMs. Admin was kind enough to let this thread ride, as it is legitimate to out interests here. We should show our gratitude through this respect.

Keep me in the loop, I know some would prefer that I stay home.

POLICE: Troy man arrested after carrying loaded rifle in downtown Birmingham

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