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Thread: Cowlitz Courthouse carry

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    Cowlitz Courthouse carry

    Hello all. I've been checking out your forum occasionally for the past year or so. Yesterday I needed to drop a sworn declaration and witness statement at the court clerks office. I was carrying as I do every day and politely informed the sheriff at the door. He was very rude and despite having an empty lock box in plain view, denied me entry. I had no issues using the lock boxes when called for jury duty a couple months ago. Dissappointing. I informed the officer that with my cpl he was required to provide me a lockbox. Was I wrong?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elkjunkie View Post
    Hello all. I've been checking out your forum occasionally for the past year or so. Yesterday I needed to drop a sworn declaration and witness statement at the court clerks office. I was carrying as I do every day and politely informed the sheriff at the door. He was very rude and despite having an empty lock box in plain view, denied me entry. I had no issues using the lock boxes when called for jury duty a couple months ago. Dissappointing. I informed the officer that with my cpl he was required to provide me a lockbox. Was I wrong?
    Cowlitz is required by law to provide lockbox and hand you the key or designate an official to hold your weapon, no CPL required. I argue that no ID is required either.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Only restricted areas of a courthouse are off limits. The general public locations besides the courtrooms and chambers should still be okay. I assume to drop off a sworn statement it would have been to one of the windows in this general access area, therefore, you likely didn't need to check a firearm...

    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 04-19-2012 at 11:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Only restricted areas of a courthouse are off limits. The general public locations besides the courtrooms and chambers should still be okay. I assume to drop off a sworn statement it would have been to one of the windows in this general access area, therefore, you likely didn't need to check a firearm...
    While I agree that common areas are excluded, it isn't that way in practice, at least not in Lewis county. You get stopped right inside the door and can go no further...

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    Thanks for the replies. I did some digging and found the info I needed under RCW 9.41.300 third paragraph of 1), (b).
    "In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for a pistol and a key to a weapon owner for weapon storage...."
    Unfortunately the entire Courthouse in cowlitz is restricted. In the same RCW section it states about restricted areas not including common areas of ingress and egress "when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress." They are stretching this part.
    I wish I could copy and paste with this lame phone. Guess its too"smart" for me.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Unless concealed carrying one does not need a CPL to have their firearm secured, note they are required to provide a lock box or a designated official to receive weapons for safe keeping and must be with in the same building.



    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.


    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;
    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).
    For purposes of this subsection (1)(b), "weapon" means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or any weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.
    In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.
    The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places -- Local laws and ordinances -- Exceptions -- Penalty.
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

    For purposes of this subsection (1)(b), "weapon" means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or any weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.

    In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.


    As I read it, there's no requirement for you to have a permit. Seems I should also deposit my pocket knife too.
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

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    Big Dave posted while I was typing and referencing my reply. Nuts.
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

    I believe in freedom, Mr. Lipwig. Not many people do, although they will, of course, protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.

    The freedom to succeed goes hand in hand with the freedom to fail. - Going Postal, Terry Pratchett

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    Thanks for pasting that RCW bigdave and Levi. I just couldn't do it from my phone. Oneeyeross the cowlitz courthouse is the same way. Can't even get a coffee n the lobby.....and I love guns and coffee. BTW I was just in Winlock at FatBoys hotrods. Hope they get that road fixed soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elkjunkie View Post
    Thanks for pasting that RCW bigdave and Levi. I just couldn't do it from my phone. Oneeyeross the cowlitz courthouse is the same way. Can't even get a coffee n the lobby.....and I love guns and coffee. BTW I was just in Winlock at FatBoys hotrods. Hope they get that road fixed soon.
    Road fixed...hahahahhahaha.....oh....sorry. Yes, they think it will be done a few days early. Seems they found a cement culvert of the right size and don't have to make one.

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    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    Lewis County Courthouse lobby guards are courteous, at least the older gentleman was.
    Be safe, be prepared, and carry on!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elkjunkie View Post
    Thanks for the replies. I did some digging and found the info I needed under RCW 9.41.300 third paragraph of 1), (b).
    "In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for a pistol and a key to a weapon owner for weapon storage...."
    Unfortunately the entire Courthouse in cowlitz is restricted. In the same RCW section it states about restricted areas not including common areas of ingress and egress "when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress." They are stretching this part.
    I wish I could copy and paste with this lame phone. Guess its too"smart" for me.
    I was successful in making Whatcom County rearrange their security ropes so that it follows the law and I have access to many of the non-courthouse related areas, like executive office, county council chambers and all the other 1st floor areas, since our courthouses are on the second floor.

    Investigate, inquire, and ask for them to comply with laws, Lock box, restrictive areas, etc....you'd be surprised at what you as a lone citizen demanding what is right can accomplish.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places -- Local laws and ordinances -- Exceptions -- Penalty.
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

    For purposes of this subsection (1)(b), "weapon" means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or any weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.
    .


    As I read it, there's no requirement for you to have a permit. Seems I should also deposit my pocket knife too.
    Not all knives:

    ...that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury. (unless your in King County)
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    It's always nice to here of pleasant and respectful interactions. I should mention that for three days of jury duty I had no issues using the lockboxes, and had pleasant interactions with a number of the deputies who handle security. I have been asked to leave my leatherman in my truck. It seems that is a rights violation as well. Good work at Whatcom sudden valley gunner. We'll se how my conversation goes with the sheriff.
    Last edited by elkjunkie; 04-20-2012 at 11:40 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places -- Local laws and ordinances -- Exceptions -- Penalty.
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

    For purposes of this subsection (1)(b), "weapon" means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or any weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.

    In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.


    As I read it, there's no requirement for you to have a permit. Seems I should also deposit my pocket knife too.
    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Not all knives:

    ...that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury. (unless your in King County)
    This includes Any Knife as being restricted. This is where people misinform themselves by poke and pick what part of the language they are wanting to use to suit their need or desire.

    "or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury."

    This clearly states any knife and goes on to similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury .... which I feel items as a sword, spear or even baseball bats, clubs and so on, taking any type of knife as you suggest could and likely either be denied access or to the extreme being charged.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    This includes Any Knife as being restricted. This is where people misinform themselves by poke and pick what part of the language they are wanting to use to suit their need or desire.

    "or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury."

    This clearly states any knife and goes on to similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury .... which I feel items as a sword, spear or even baseball bats, clubs and so on, taking any type of knife as you suggest could and likely either be denied access or to the extreme being charged.
    While I understand where you are coming from, I would like you to cite law or court decisions that back your assertion. What you are asserting is that my common 3in folding pocket knife is restricted. I do not see a common 3in folder that thousands carry every day to open boxes with while at work as .... "and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury."

    Perhaps you can cite an appellate or supreme court decision here in Washington that backs your assertion.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    While I understand where you are coming from, I would like you to cite law or court decisions that back your assertion. What you are asserting is that my common 3in folding pocket knife is restricted. I do not see a common 3in folder that thousands carry every day to open boxes with while at work as .... "and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury."

    Perhaps you can cite an appellate or supreme court decision here in Washington that backs your assertion.
    It is capable of causing harm though....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    While I understand where you are coming from, I would like you to cite law or court decisions that back your assertion. What you are asserting is that my common 3in folding pocket knife is restricted. I do not see a common 3in folder that thousands carry every day to open boxes with while at work as .... "and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury."

    Perhaps you can cite an appellate or supreme court decision here in Washington that backs your assertion.
    Really lol, you should know that there is only case law when a law is challenged.
    Lets bring your attention to the punctuation and how it applies.

    For purposes of this subsection (1)(b), "weapon" means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or any weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.
    Note; OR ANY KNIFE, OR OTHER SIMILAR WEAPON THAT IS CAPABLE .....

    The issue being raised is commonly used..... Note this has to do with Or Other Similar Weapon, Any Knife is what it says, any knife.
    Last edited by BigDave; 04-20-2012 at 10:49 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Really lol, you should know that there is only case law when a law is challenged.
    Lets bring your attention to the punctuation and how it applies.

    Note; OR ANY KNIFE, OR OTHER SIMILAR WEAPON THAT IS CAPABLE .....

    The issue being raised is commonly used..... Note this has to do with Or Other Similar Weapon, Any Knife is what it says, any knife.
    I understand, and if there is no case law, it is equally likely not being challenged because no 3in folding knives are ever brought to trial or appeal because they do not meet the final qualifying statement of the law.

    and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.
    (see I can highlight in red too! )
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I understand, and if there is no case law, it is equally likely not being challenged because no 3in folding knives are ever brought to trial or appeal because they do not meet the final qualifying statement of the law.

    (see I can highlight in red too! )
    Ahhh I see how you are reading that now, I was reading it as both sections being a qualifier. But with that specific or and then the and.....good point.

    I just saw security deny a guy from taking his very small pocket knife past check point the other day.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Ahhh I see how you are reading that now, I was reading it as both sections being a qualifier. But with that specific or and then the and.....good point.

    I just saw security deny a guy from taking his very small pocket knife past check point the other day.
    The overreaction has moved to nail clippers, etc.... go to the courthouse and ask to see the confiscated box.
    Live Free or Die!

  22. #22
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.
    , or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.

    In this case the ", or other similar weapon" is generalizing other weapons capable of causing death or bodily injury and ....
    all knives are prohibited including your 3" folding knife or leatherman and so on.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    well,,,

    If the law didnt intend to place qualifiers of the type of knife, or single out knives that were indended for killing,
    then why didnt the law just say, "ANY KNIFE"??

    Kind of like the words that restrict guns from federal buildings,
    one of the phrases actually says that,
    it is unlawfull to carry a gun IF you have it because you are going to Murder some one in that building!

    Sooo to my way of thinking, None of my knives are generally used for killing people,
    just as my carry gun is not taken to federal buildings to murder people!
    I should be able to carry both a knife and a gun... I am a law abiding citizen..
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 04-21-2012 at 01:06 AM.
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    other things capable of killing someone

    I guess they should stop allowing pens and pencils and shoe laces etc.etc.etc.
    I truly Love my Country, But the government scares the he!! out of me.

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  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    The overreaction has moved to nail clippers, etc.... go to the courthouse and ask to see the confiscated box.
    I'm slowly working on trying to get rid of the silly rubber cops at Whatcom. Funneling people through a scanner like sheep being prepared to be fleeced. Not obeying the laws, lying and then not being held accountable because they are a private firm hired by the county. Funny how a little over 10 years ago we had none of this, then some whackos drive a plane into some buildings and suddenly we are all treated as potential terrorists when we show up for traffic court.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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