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OT: Marysville Investigation Complete

decklin

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Just saw this.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Investigation-complete-in-death-of-Marysville-officers-daughter-148096135.html

From the link-

STANWOOD, Wash. – Snohomish County sheriff’s detectives have completed their investigation into the shooting death of a Marysville police officer’s daughter with the officer’s gun.

The Everett Herald reports the case was handed over to prosecutors Wednesday with no recommendation from detectives on whether charges should be filed.

Deputy prosecutor Lisa Paul reportedly would not say how long it would take to make a charging decision.
 

oneeyeross

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I can't imagine how they wouldn't charge him...(yes, that is intended as a sarcastic, cynical remark, knowing full well that the law doesn't apply to special people and all).
 

jbone

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Ok, since stupid is not a criminal offense, but negligent is another thing. Investigators will seek charges faster than Obama can print money against a school kid or parent when a gun is brought to school. But no charges when a loaded gun is negligently left unattended and a kid dies, and clearly because of that negligent action? I hope the prosecutor’s office sees things differently when reviewing.

 
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ManInBlack

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The Everett Herald reports the case was handed over to prosecutors Wednesday with no recommendation from detectives on whether charges should be filed.

Would it have turned out the same way if the negligent party were a mere mundane, rather than a fellow brother-in-blue?

I doubt it.
 

1911er

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the other case

The same circumstance as the case in Tacoma with A "mere mundane" happened two days after the marysville incident and the guy was charged A week ago. Tell me they don't protect their own its horse shite.
 

amlevin

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Just for the heck of it, why don't we wait and see what the prosecutor does. Who knows, he may throw the book at this guy if he can get a conviction.

If it does make it to court, just remember that the Jury won't be comprised of Police Officers.


I'd rather have something to gripe about before griping. What are you all going to say if he is charged?????


Hopefully we'll hear soon from the prosecutor.
 

ManInBlack

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I'd rather have something to gripe about before griping. What are you all going to say if he is charged?????

I'm going to say kudos to the prosecutor, but shame on the department for not having the integrity to recommend charges against one of its own, when such charges are clearly warranted.

At the very least, they could have made an easy decision on RCW 9.41.050(2)(a), which the officer clearly violated.

RCW 9.41.050

Carrying firearms.
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
 
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ManInBlack

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Ummm really? Look at RCW 9.41.060:



Police officers are exempt. They can leave their loaded guns in plain view in their unlocked vehicles all day long.

I stand corrected.

ETA: I am sure glad law enforcement officers use their liberty responsibly, unlike those pesky citizens. ;)
 
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hermannr

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Ummm really? Look at RCW 9.41.060:



Police officers are exempt. They can leave their loaded guns in plain view in their unlocked vehicles all day long.

Or even a select fire M4, fully loaded on the trunk lid, and then drive around town that way. You can't even put your kids Single Shot 22, loaded, on the trunk lid, or in or on any other part of your car either.

What the officer was negligent in doing was training his kid...not how he secured, or did not secure the weapon. If he is prosecuted, I hope he is found not guilty, just like I hope the civilian in Tacoma is found not guilty.

Any bets that the Marysville persecutor waits until the other case is final?
 
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amlevin

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I'm going to say kudos to the prosecutor, but shame on the department for not having the integrity to recommend charges against one of its own, when such charges are clearly warranted.

Remember, this incident occurred in Stanwood and involved a Marysville officer. Other than being a LEO, he wasn't exactly "one of their own.

Also, it's up to the Prosecutor to charge, not the Police. They just gather the evidence and details.
 

ManInBlack

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Remember, this incident occurred in Stanwood and involved a Marysville officer. Other than being a LEO, he wasn't exactly "one of their own.

Being an LEO is all that matters. Go check out the officer.com forums some time and you'll see what I mean

Also, it's up to the Prosecutor to charge, not the Police. They just gather the evidence and details.

True, but as the article states, the police can offer a recommendation to prosecute, based upon their investigation. They declined to do so.
 

BigDave

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Many speculations have been made some may need some hot sauce to down the crow :).
Law Enforcement general refers cases to the prosecutors office for review and some interpret this as recommending charges, charges being filed is left to the prosecutors office, law enforcement is the investigating portion of it.

Marysville police officer charged with manslaughter in daughter's death

A Marysville, Wash., police officer is being charged with second-degree manslaughter after his daughter was shot and killed by a sibling using the officer’s gun. That's according to Officer Derek Carlile's attorney.
 

jbone

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I think they should have went with Reckless under 1st degree.
 

Lord Sega

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Investigation time to charges, officer 10 weeks, non-officer 2 weeks.
Both are within a reasonable window of time, but I will say that 2 weeks seems fast.

Both are facing the same charge: second-degree manslaughter.
Although the non-officer's girlfriend is also charged when the officer's wife is not, I would think, while not the primary one responsible they played their part.

We know there was negligence in both cases, but does it rise to criminal negligence? (see below)

I would say (in my opinion only) that it probably does rise to to criminal negligence.
While they did not follow reasonable safety / handling of their handgun, and should both receive punishment, the question is how much?

RCW 9a.20.021
1) b) For a class B felony, by confinement in a state correctional institution for a term of ten years, or by a fine in an amount fixed by the court of twenty thousand dollars, or by both such confinement and fine;

I also feel that the loss of a child and how that affects the family is punishment enough.
It will be interesting to see the outcomes of the trials and compare the sentences.

RCW 9A.32.070
Manslaughter in the second degree.

(1) A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when, with criminal negligence, he or she causes the death of another person.

(2) Manslaughter in the second degree is a class B felony.


RCW 9A.08.010
General requirements of culpability.

(1) Kinds of Culpability Defined.

(a) INTENT. A person acts with intent or intentionally when he or she acts with the objective or purpose to accomplish a result which constitutes a crime.
(b) KNOWLEDGE. A person knows or acts knowingly or with knowledge when:
(i) he or she is aware of a fact, facts, or circumstances or result described by a statute defining an offense; or
(ii) he or she has information which would lead a reasonable person in the same situation to believe that facts exist which facts are described by a statute defining an offense.
(c) RECKLESSNESS. A person is reckless or acts recklessly when he or she knows of and disregards a substantial risk that a wrongful act may occur and his or her disregard of such substantial risk is a gross deviation from conduct that a reasonable person would exercise in the same situation.
(d) CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. A person is criminally negligent or acts with criminal negligence when he or she fails to be aware of a substantial risk that a wrongful act may occur and his or her failure to be aware of such substantial risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the same situation.

(2) Substitutes for Criminal Negligence, Recklessness, and Knowledge. When a statute provides that criminal negligence suffices to establish an element of an offense, such element also is established if a person acts intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly. When recklessness suffices to establish an element, such element also is established if a person acts intentionally or knowingly. When acting knowingly suffices to establish an element, such element also is established if a person acts intentionally.

(3) Culpability as Determinant of Grade of Offense. When the grade or degree of an offense depends on whether the offense is committed intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence, its grade or degree shall be the lowest for which the determinative kind of culpability is established with respect to any material element of the offense.

(4) Requirement of Wilfulness Satisfied by Acting Knowingly. A requirement that an offense be committed willfully is satisfied if a person acts knowingly with respect to the material elements of the offense, unless a purpose to impose further requirements plainly appears.
 

hermannr

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I will be on neither jury, but if I were I would vote "not guilty". While we can do resonable things to prevent tragic incidents like these were, it is impossible to prevent all of them, no matter what happens.

What is the difference between the boy shooting the girl, then what happened to me as a kid? My sister purposly pushed me, and then her dall carriage down the stairs on top of, after me, in our home when I was a child. I would have died from the injuries of that fall if we did not live across the street from the regional hospital.

Now were my parents negligent by leaving my sister and me upstairs alone? (our bedrooms were upstairs) If I had died, would my parents have been negligent to the point of being charged with manslaughter?

The only difference here is that this other insident wasn't an "accident" because the weapon was a gun, rather than 15" of staircase.

Or, how about the kid that kills his/her sibling with an automobile? or an ATV? or any other method other than a firearm? All of the others would be classed as an "accident" and the parents would not be held responsible.

I keep the keys to all of our vehicle on a key hanger by the front door. Let's say one of the grandkids (one of the ones that is not old enough to drive legally), gets one the keys off the hanger for one of my vehicles...then procedes to back that vehicle over a younger (or even older) sibling...Am I negligent because those kids took my vehicle and back over their sibling? I doubt it.
 
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amlevin

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I will be on neither jury, but if I were I would vote "not guilty". While we can do resonable things to prevent tragic incidents like these were, it is impossible to prevent all of them, no matter what happens.

What is the difference between the boy shooting the girl, then what happened to me as a kid? My sister purposly pushed me, and then her dall carriage down the stairs on top of, after me, in our home when I was a child. I would have died from the injuries of that fall if we did not live across the street from the regional hospital.

Now were my parents negligent by leaving my sister and me upstairs alone? (our bedrooms were upstairs) If I had died, would my parents have been negligent to the point of being charged with manslaughter?

The only difference here is that this other insident wasn't an "accident" because the weapon was a gun, rather than 15" of staircase.

Or, how about the kid that kills his/her sibling with an automobile? or an ATV? or any other method other than a firearm? All of the others would be classed as an "accident" and the parents would not be held responsible.

I keep the keys to all of our vehicle on a key hanger by the front door. Let's say one of the grandkids (one of the ones that is not old enough to drive legally), gets one the keys off the hanger for one of my vehicles...then procedes to back that vehicle over a younger (or even older) sibling...Am I negligent because those kids took my vehicle and back over their sibling? I doubt it.

Anytime it can be shown that an event causing death or injury could have been prevented, it usually involves some form of negligence. The level of negligence is what determines whether a charge is filed. Leaving a loaded gun under the seat of a vehicle filled with kids certainly meets the criteria of negligence. The Prosecutor saw it the same and filed the charges.

In your situation it's almost amazing that someone didn't sue the contractor that built the stairs, the buggy manufacturer for improper design, and depending on her age, the schools for not teaching her it was wrong to try and kill her brother.

In reality, charges are filed regularly, all over the country, in the same scenario you described. When you arrived at the hospital, if it had been today, a report would most likely have been submitted to CPS or DSHS, as well as the local PD.

Lastly, if a gun was used by your little sis, rather than a staircase, chances are you wouldn't be here today.
 
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jbone

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The only difference here is that this other insident wasn't an "accident" because the weapon was a gun, rather than 15" of staircase.

I'm sure the anti's are thanking you for promoting their position; the gun is responaible, not the reckless man.
 

decklin

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I get what hermannr is trying to say but I don't think it applies to this situation. There is a difference between a 15' staircase and a loaded gun left unsecured in a car full of children by a man that most definitely should have known better.
I have mixed feelings about whether charges should be filed in this situation as well as the other non-officer ones. My first instinct is to say it was an accident and losing a child is punishment enough. Then I think that leaving a loaded gun in a car with kids is just stupid. It's not like he forgot it was there. Who the hell forgets where they put their gun?
Additionally this is not just an accident where a kid ended up getting hurt. An accident is leaving the stove on and your kid puts his hand on it and gets burned. An accident is leaving the basement door open and your kid falls down the stairs.
This guy was too stupid to lock it up or have it on him. He also was apparently too stupid to teach his kids not to play with a gun if they find one.
 

hermannr

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I grew up around firearms in the 40's and 50's...nobody had gun safes, nobody stopped their your children from handling the firearms, yes there were rules, and most partents would be charged with child abuse these days if you did not follow those rules...and guess what, very rarely did a kid (or their parent) get in any kind of legal problems because of all those unsupervised firearms.

Any child is curious, and any child knows a lot more than any adult gives them credit for knowing. Is a 3 year old responsible? yes and no. A properly trained and disiplined child at 3 knows what he should and should not do. As my wife used to say when very young..."am I supposed to do this?...no...but I'm going to dood it anyway" Did she get a wooping for "dooding" it? You bet,but you knew the price before you did it.

The whole thing with firearms and very young...they want to know everything, they are learning at a rate you cannot even comprehend under normal circumstances...my very young daughters (3 and 1) could speak German as well as they could speak English within days of moving into a rural area in Germany. Adults can only wish they could do that...it took me longer to get my German back (that I learned as a child but then never practiced after my grandparents died and dad quit preaching in German in the 50's) then it took or daughters to pick it up in the first place. My oldest daughter was even correcting her German teacher in High School, and he was native Schwabish German...he would answer her...yes Sheila, that is how it is said in Schwabia, but this is classic German.

If this guy was negligent at anything, it was training his kids, or maybe disciplining his kids, but it had nothing to do with how he handled his firearm. Anybody that buys into that is siding with the Brady bunch.
 
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