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off topic chp question

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
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Oct 16, 2007
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I know it disturbs Peter greatly and perhaps you too, but VA is part of the USA and federal law does apply to VA. Why do you think it's someone else's problem to get a bad federal law fixed? I shouldn't be surprised I guess, the NRA that does focus primarily at federal level does not seem at all popular around here.

Bill, it doesn't disturb me that people do it. People have all kinds of reasons for getting CHP's. You haven't been around long enough to know that this is not a new subject.

A couple of years ago one of the Yorktown 45ACP's did the same thing. We had the same discussion more or less and until we get Constitutional Carry, it's going to be a dilemma for some people.

What disturbs me is the attitude that it's not a big thing and one should get his/her CHP just to be safe. That sets the stage for more permit legislation. P4P.

I think the world of Philip Van Cleave and even though we often disagree, we usually find some common ground...but a few years ago VCDL signed on to a bill that was pure P4P and during a somewhat heated discussion here, Philip posted "Everyone can afford $50.00 for a CHP".

During that time I was paying about $500.00 worth of VCDL dues for people that couldn't afford them. I stopped doing that and came within a hair of burning my card. The legislation didn't pass because of a lot of quiet opposition and Saslaw (Who is great to know when you want something killed in committee).

The problem was not Philip, he was just going by the Board's wishes and since that time, the board has changed a good deal.

Using a Law that won't be enforced to entice people to get Permits creates a very bad precedent. One that's dangerous to our open carry WITHOUT A PERMIT society. There are many OC'ers that have permits which is fine....and unfortunately, many CHiPpers that OC (AKA...dress up people).

This statement is dangerous "A CHP at $10 per year is pretty inexpensive. Given that a violation of this law is a felony, it is not unreasonable to be wary. It's not the probability - it's the stakes!".
 
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BillB

Regular Member
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Jun 3, 2011
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200
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NOVA
Peter, thanks for the reasoned and historical reply. While the CHP disturbs you, what disturbs me is the attitude that the GFSZA is not at all a threat and we don't need to worry about it. This attitude leads to one thinking that nothing needs to be done about fixing this law. I think this is dangerous! This is a bad law that needs to be repealed or majorly modified. Although it's only very seldom enforced today, that could change tomorrow so long as this bad law is on the books. Rather than you and I engaging in point and counterpoint argument on this, let's just agree to disagree.
 
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peter nap

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it affects OCing.

New OC'er comes here, finds out its legal but this big evil law, goes to a park within 1000' of a school. Federal cops there for some reason, BAM hes in jail, are YOU going to pay his bail/trial fee's?

New OC'er parks within 1000' and a spaceship spots him, duplicates his body in a giant seed pod which goes on a rampage after drinking Johnny Walker Red which he sneaked out of an ABC Store under his leaf......

COME ON, this is getting ridiculous! CITE Dammit!!!!

Give me a VIRGINIA case where that's happened? Not some lame article about the nice woman who went to school after target shooting in west central nowhere, and got in a brawl with the other Soccer Moms.......a real live, this happened in VIRGINIA and was convicted case CITE?

See, this is what happens. The OP was fine and asked an OT question. No big deal really. Then the Dressup People start. "Well I have to have my CHP because I ride my bike within 1000 feet off a school but with my CHP I'm SPECIAL.....naa, naa, naa, nanan!:eek::eek:

What FEDERAL COPS are we talking about that are in Virginia, checking parked cars within a thousand feet of a school. Could it be the FBI's special parking patrol? Maybe the US Marshals inspection sticker task force.....Perhaps a Secret Service Agent looking for a Hooker????

I don't know which is worse. This thread or the one where the kid is afraid of his Algebra teacher who at 60, became a senile boomerang banana thrower with a Ferrari!:banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
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curtiswr

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,133
Location
Richmond, VA, ,
it affects OCing.

New OC'er comes here, finds out its legal but this big evil law, goes to a park within 1000' of a school. Federal cops there for some reason, BAM hes in jail, are YOU going to pay his bail/trial fee's?

I lived within a block or two of three separate schools in the Museum District in Richmond, VA and open carried every day, all day (before I had a CHP) whenever I had the chance, and every other opportunity presented in my daily life, and I never had a problem with LEOs (and yes I had direct interactions with them on issues unrelated, so it was not just simply a case of me going unnoticed). Grapeshot and another (sorry, my memory is failing me right now... riverrat10k?) accompanied me on National Night Out one year. We ended up at Weezie's in Carytown, if I recall correctly... with not a single problem and in praise of one father of an enterprising young child with a lemonade stand that lived not half a block from where I did.

And yeah, as broke as I am, I would contribute what I could to his defense and court fees. I have no doubt that a majority of us here at OCDO would.
 
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Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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18,269
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Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP See, this is what happens. The OP was fine and asked an OT question. No big deal really. Then the Dressup People start. "Well I have to have my CHP because I ride my bike within 1000 feet off a school but with my CHP I'm SPECIAL.....naa, naa, naa, nanan!:eek::eek:

What FEDERAL COPS are we talking about that are in Virginia, checking parked cars within a thousand feet of a school. Could it be the FBI's special parking patrol? Maybe the US Marshals inspection sticker task force.....Perhaps a Secret Service Agent looking for a Hooker???

You understand you are attacking someone for trying to be law-abiding, right? On a forum where we only advocate for the law-abiding, right?

I can tell you that early in my gun-toting, shock-trooping, activist career, I was very careful about that little 1000' rule myself. It boils down to having enough knowledge to have judgement on the issue. Just like anything else, if you only have a few facts, your ability to make fine judgement calls is going to be necessarily less than someone who has lots more knowledge of all the angles. For example, this is why we listen to people like User--because he's a litigator and has been immersed in criminal law for years and years.

So, without knowing how much knowledge our bike-rider has, or how new to the subject, or how broad his sphere of exposure, I think it a little bit of jumping the gun to go after him quite so fast. For all we know, the part about the GFSZ 1000' rule never being enforced may be totally new to readers. Its a crucial piece of information. Think about it. You hear about a law, you're going to assume its being enforced or will be enforced. How many people stop and read the history of every gun law to see if it was ever shot down by an appellate court and then re-written by the legislature in a feeble attempt to pass muster? And, then research to see if prosecutors were risking it by enforcing it after is was rewritten?
 
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peter nap

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Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
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Valhalla
You understand you are attacking someone for trying to be law-abiding, right? On a forum where we only advocate for the law-abiding, right?

I can tell you that early in my gun-toting, shock-trooping, activist career, I was very careful about that little 1000' rule myself. It boils down to having enough knowledge to have judgement on the issue. Just like anything else, if you only have a few facts, your ability to make fine judgement calls is going to be necessarily less than someone who has lots more knowledge of all the angles. For example, this is why we listen to people like User--because he's a litigator and has been immersed in criminal law for years and years.

So, without knowing how much knowledge our bike-rider has, or how new to the subject, or how broad his sphere of exposure, I think it a little bit of jumping the gun to go after him quite so fast. For all we know, the part about the GFSZ 1000' rule never being enforced may be totally new to readers. Its a crucial piece of information. Think about it. You hear about a law, you're going to assume its being enforced or will be enforced. How many people stop and read the history of every gun law to see if it was ever shot down by an appellate court and then re-written by the legislature in a feeble attempt to pass muster? And, then research to see if prosecutors were risking it by enforcing it after is was rewritten?

I give up!
Go ahead and talk up CHP's, P4P and how OC'ers will preserve Virginia's OC heritage through judicious use of CHP laws...I have better things to do.
This is why we won't ever have Constitutional Carry.

I'm done with this thread!
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
You understand you are attacking someone for trying to be law-abiding, right? On a forum where we only advocate for the law-abiding, right?

I can tell you that early in my gun-toting, shock-trooping, activist career, I was very careful about that little 1000' rule myself. It boils down to having enough knowledge to have judgement on the issue. Just like anything else, if you only have a few facts, your ability to make fine judgement calls is going to be necessarily less than someone who has lots more knowledge of all the angles. For example, this is why we listen to people like User--because he's a litigator and has been immersed in criminal law for years and years.

So, without knowing how much knowledge our bike-rider has, or how new to the subject, or how broad his sphere of exposure, I think it a little bit of jumping the gun to go after him quite so fast. For all we know, the part about the GFSZ 1000' rule never being enforced may be totally new to readers. Its a crucial piece of information. Think about it. You hear about a law, you're going to assume its being enforced or will be enforced. How many people stop and read the history of every gun law to see if it was ever shot down by an appellate court and then re-written by the legislature in a feeble attempt to pass muster? And, then research to see if prosecutors were risking it by enforcing it after is was rewritten?

There are three points I'd like to address here.

First, I do not see anyone being personally attacked. Neither has a group been criticized for anything other than their opposition to OC. People have spoken out on a condition about which they have some passion, but have avoided for the most part any direct reference to an individual's personality traits. No foul, no flag.

"We only advocate for the law abiding" - true enough and literal. Rule #15 reads: "WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts."

That said, I submit that some acts/conduct are more egregious (in violation) than others - the degree/quality of ignoring the rule(s) is always a consideration. Seriously promoting/advocating armed rebellion or murder will illicit a hard and final response from the administration, but those that jay-walk in the middle of a block will likely only be reminded that has little (nothing) to do with OC or RKBA, if such is even addressed on these pages at all. There are those who feel that the rules and interpretation of them should be rigidly defined in black and white. We have before said that is not always case and indeed is not possible unless we have something akin to the weight and volume of Robert's Rules on parliamentary procedure - even that gets revised occasionally. See the reference in OCDO rules, "Please note that these Rules may be revised and reissued without notice at any time." Some decisions are made that are not always precisely identical to others that would seem similar - each question of violation, particularly serious ones, are treated individually - the facts and motives are considered.

As to the poster in question being new having merit - most definitely. He was given a broad range of responses: precise legal and well as the non-legal, this-is-the-way-it-is, understanding of others. Is that not working to change the law by being willing to test the merit/effectiveness, even the response of LE? Maybe a bit of a stretch for some - but perhaps not.

In fairness to our doctrine and my instructions, I am entering the rules violators in this instance in my ledger book of infractions and awarding each rule bender with one (1) demerit. Trust that this recognition will satisfy those that demand this situation be watched - it is.

As to the actual law itself, I suspect this will one day be addressed again by SCOTUS - something I believe that the other side would rather avoid.
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
I give up!
Go ahead and talk up CHP's, P4P and how OC'ers will preserve Virginia's OC heritage through judicious use of CHP laws...I have better things to do.
This is why we won't ever have Constitutional Carry.

I'm done with this thread!

Oh, jeez. Calm down. You bit**ed at the school-zone bike-rider excessively before educating him about the pitfalls of CHPs. That's all. I never said a CHP was better than constitutional carry. I doubt anybody was, although I could be wrong since I haven't read every post since then.

My main thrust is to give them a bit of break and educate them. So, they have a misguided reason for having or getting a CHP? So, what? 'splain it to them. If they get all NRA-instructorish about protecting income or status, then rip 'em to shreds.
 
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