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Thread: Opencarry for out of staters.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Opencarry for out of staters.

    Hi guys, I'll be in Allentown and Long Pond next week/weekend for the Tough Mudder and was wondering about OC for out of staters.

    I found this:

    Open carry in a vehicle requires a valid PA License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) or a carry license from ANY other state. Ref: Title 18 §6106

    The bold part is where I am having trouble. In VA we have no license to carry other than the CHP if we want to conceal. Does this mean I have to have a concealed permit to carry in my car or that being from Virginia I am legally allowed to open carry in the car???

    I've never been to PA and except for the actual Tough Mudder was hoping to OC. I realize that Allentown isn't a "city of the first class" so that should be ok. Just not sure about transporting the handgun.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

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    You will need your chp from Virginia to carry a firearm in a car here in Pa.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    PA requires some sort of State-issued carry permit to carry ANY loaded firearm in a vehicle, concealed or openly.

    For the purpose of this statute, ANY state-issued carry permit will suffice. It doesn't have to be a state on PA's official "reciprocity list", and it doesn't have to be specifically a permit to carry concealed. In fact, several states (PA and MD included) do NOT issue "concealed carry permits"--they have general "carry permits/licenses" which give the holder the ADDED PRIVILEGE to carry concealed should they so want...

    As for the "Cities of the First Class", that is "code" for Philadelphia. You need a permit to carry ANYWHERE in ANY MODE, on foot or in a car, in Philly.

    OC in Philly is sort of a crap shoot. It is 100% legal if you have a carry permit. And under PA law, OC is NOT "probable cause", but Philly cops don't seem to think they have to follow sate law or case law precedent, and if they see you OCing, you WILL get stopped, they WILL demand to see your permit, and they will probably scream at you, cuff you, rough you up, seize your weapon and run it's serial number, and harass you for an hour or more, with several cruisers full of cops called in for "backup".

    In other words, if you are planning to OC in Philly, you'd better have a voice recorder at the bare minimum, and better yet, a friend close by with a video camera. And your lawyer on speed dial might not be a bad idea either...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-30-2012 at 01:03 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    You are from Virginia going to Pennsylvania -- I should point out you are going THROUGH the State of Maryland -- you should talk to Dreamer more about this, but for the love of all things good and holy -- BE CAREFUL IN MARYLAND.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    You are from Virginia going to Pennsylvania -- I should point out you are going THROUGH the State of Maryland -- you should talk to Dreamer more about this, but for the love of all things good and holy -- BE CAREFUL IN MARYLAND.
    Thats not true. He could be coming from Virgina and driving through WEST Virgina and into western PA.

    But you're right, if you he is driving through Maryland, he better follow their strict laws regarding firearms.
    Its not impossible to drive to/through MD with firearms. I do it a few times a year.
    You just need to be careful.
    Last edited by Sig229; 04-21-2012 at 04:52 PM.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    You are from Virginia going to Pennsylvania -- I should point out you are going THROUGH the State of Maryland -- you should talk to Dreamer more about this, but for the love of all things good and holy -- BE CAREFUL IN MARYLAND.
    Simple...

    Just adhere to FOPA for the MD stretch, and no problem.

    Oh yeah... and don't do anything dumdum to attract attention!!!

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    Simple...

    Just adhere to FOPA for the MD stretch, and no problem.

    Oh yeah... and don't do anything dumdum to attract attention!!!

    I thought MD doesn't fully honor FOPA?
    For instance, FOPA states that short stops for food or gas are okay.
    However, In MD dont they not allow such stops?
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    I thought MD doesn't fully honor FOPA?
    For instance, FOPA states that short stops for food or gas are okay.
    However, In MD dont they not allow such stops?

    The way I read it, and IANAL, MD 4 203 is equal to or even less restrictive than FOPA.

    Although all my encounters with MD LEOs were pretty laid back, taking place in the 70's,
    80's and 90's. Said encounters were with HoCo PD, BCoPD, and MDSP.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    The way I read it, and IANAL, MD 4 203 is equal to or even less restrictive than FOPA.

    Although all my encounters with MD LEOs were pretty laid back, taking place in the 70's,
    80's and 90's. Said encounters were with HoCo PD, BCoPD, and MDSP.
    Thats good to know.
    I have to visit MD next week and I wont be on the look out for a police cruiser before I pull into places for food or fuel.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    I thought MD doesn't fully honor FOPA?
    For instance, FOPA states that short stops for food or gas are okay.
    However, In MD dont they not allow such stops?
    I hate to sound this way, but "Don't start nuttin', won't be nuttin'..."

    Seriously, though, if there is no reason to call attention to the locked case(s) in the trunk, then leave it be.

    While FOPA is Federal, there may... MAY... be the odd Trooper who would give you a hard time should an issue arise. Doesn't mean they're right or wrong (OK, likely wrong in a non-issue situation), but it's better to be aware and covered, in case.

    For the OP...

    If you're coming up 81, it is a pretty short stretch. No way I'm offering advice on what you do there.

    If you are using 95 and/or 83, then pull off in VA, lock up gas up and shut up.

    On the Weird-stuff-o-meter... As it turns out, I'll be in Allentown Saturday as well... but I don't think it will really be worth it to to do the MD Border Dance twice in a day.
    Last edited by Mr H; 04-27-2012 at 07:04 PM.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    I hate to sound this way, but "Don't start nuttin', won't be nuttin'..."
    I agree, however thats not always true. For instance, I have been pulled over before for a minor traffic infraction and the MDSP asked me "do you have any weapon s in the vehicle?" At that time I didnt, but if I do, do I tell the truth, lie or just remain silent on the topic?

    Thats the conundrum.

    You seem to be a realistic person, and Im sure you would agree that remaining silent on the "weapons in the vehicle" question would just be a "yes" answer to a LEO. I personally would probably just say no.
    Then if he asked to search (there shouldn't be any RAS) I would decline and hopefully that would b the end of it.
    Im sure lying to a LEO is a crime, but hell it seems like it would be worth the risk regarding firearms in the vehicle in MD.



    if there is no reason to call attention to the locked case(s) in the trunk, then leave it be.
    I agree. I have a SUV with no lockable trunk. SO what I usually do is unholster, unload and lock them in cases in MD. Then bury the gun cases under luggage and other items so they cant be seen from the outside.


    If you're coming up 81, it is a pretty short stretch. No way I'm offering advice on what you do there.

    If you are using 95 and/or 83, then pull off in VA, lock up gas up and shut up.
    .
    Imk actually taking the super long route. Im taking I-68 to I-70 then onto I-495 and into Anne Arundel County via I-97. Its about 230 from the far western border of MD with WV and to my destination.

    Im not really worried about it and have handled MDSP at traffic stops before and all was okay.
    It just sucks that you have to jump through so many hoops in that state!
    Last edited by Sig229; 04-25-2012 at 09:43 PM.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    You seem to be a realistic person, and Im sure you would agree that remaining silent on the "weapons in the vehicle" question would just be a "yes" answer to a LEO. I personally would probably just say no.
    I try to be!! LOL

    I try to be aware (or at least have the information with me) on the laws where I travel.

    It has never come up for me, but if I was in a state where there was no obligation to disclose, it would be all about the circumstances as to whether I would or not.

    EDIT: Got you mixed up with the OP!!!!!! But I still think you mean 695, not 495 (and coming down 97 you'll pass a half mile from me, FWIW)
    Last edited by Mr H; 04-27-2012 at 07:01 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post

    EDIT: Got you mixed up with the OP!!!!!! But I still think you mean 695, not 495 (and coming down 97 you'll pass a half mile from me, FWIW)
    Ah yes. I did mean 695. I guess I got my liberal beltways mixed up.

    Im guessing you live in the Ferndale, Linthicum or Glen Burnie area?

    When I get to the Balto area, my first stop is usually Pasadena, then Annapolis (Naval Academy) and then spend the rest of the time in Baltimore city to visit friends and old stomping grounds.
    I may even stop by "Select Fire" for old time sakes.

    However, this trip I will probably spend a day on the Eastern Shore and do some Large Mouth Bass fishing.
    There's a few fishing spots near Denton that are amazing for LM Bass fishing. I hook one nearly every time I cast my line in.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  14. #14
    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Ah yes. I did mean 695. I guess I got my liberal beltways mixed up.

    Im guessing you live in the Ferndale, Linthicum or Glen Burnie area?

    When I get to the Balto area, my first stop is usually Pasadena, then Annapolis (Naval Academy) and then spend the rest of the time in Baltimore city to visit friends and old stomping grounds.
    I may even stop by "Select Fire" for old time sakes.

    However, this trip I will probably spend a day on the Eastern Shore and do some Large Mouth Bass fishing.
    There's a few fishing spots near Denton that are amazing for LM Bass fishing. I hook one nearly every time I cast my line in.
    Sounds like a good visit. I have GOT to get out and do some fishing.

    But as for a good range locally, I prefer On Target, over by Ft. Meade, on 175. Might try to got over there tomorrow morning, what with the wet ground impeding lawn care activities, and all...



    I live near to the MD 174 exit.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    Sounds like a good visit. I have GOT to get out and do some fishing.

    But as for a good range locally, I prefer On Target, over by Ft. Meade, on 175. Might try to got over there tomorrow morning, what with the wet ground impeding lawn care activities, and all...



    I live near to the MD 174 exit.

    Yeah, On Target does have a nicer range.
    Seemed like their prices were a little better too.

    I dont really need to go to the range in MD. Hell, I pay $10 and shoot all day here.
    But I was thinking about going to Slelect Fire to rent some FA toys.

    FA/CIII is legal here in PA, but I cant find any place local to rent.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Thats not true. He could be coming from Virgina and driving through WEST Virgina and into western PA.
    True but that's probably the worst way to get to Allentown in Eastern PA. :-)


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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    You are from Virginia going to Pennsylvania -- I should point out you are going THROUGH the State of Maryland -- you should talk to Dreamer more about this, but for the love of all things good and holy -- BE CAREFUL IN MARYLAND.

    OR you should NOT talk to Dreamer if you don't want to be made completely paranoid of and disdainful for MD...

    The MD AG has stated officially and FOR THE RECORD that MD does not recognize a RKBA. That alone should be "nuff sed" for anyone thinking about transporting firearms through the PRM...

    But if you MUST drive through MD with a firearm, here is the deal...

    Unloaded, locked up and inaccessible by ANYONE in the vehicle is the only legal way to do it. The ammo should be stored in a separate container, but it doesn't have to be locked. Also, magazines or speed-loaders CAN be loaded, but NOT stored in the same container as the firearm.

    If you DO get pulled over for some traffic infraction (real or imaginary) and you are in one of the "4 Urban Counties", you will almost ALWAYS be asked if you have any firearms in the vehicle--especially if you have VA, WV, PA or NC plates. You have TWO choices here:

    1) simply don't answer. You can NEVER say anything that will help you with a cop in MD--even if it is the truth. Don't lie--that is BAD. But not answering such a question is not illegal and does not constitute any offense, and is in fact protected under the 4th and 5th Amendments. However, be aware that ignoring such a question and not answering MAY be interpreted as "contempt of cop" and could very well get you detained, arrested, beaten and charged with any number of ridiculously fabricated violations, or

    2) tell him the truth, and be prepared to be sitting there on the side of the road for at least an hour, while they search your vehicle, and maybe even bring in a K-9 unit. This will probably result in your paint job and interior being damaged, and perhaps even the confiscation of your firearm. If you can afford that sort of abuse, theft and vandalism, (and find it preferable to the sort of "street justice" that MD LEOs routinely hand out for "contempt of cop") then just tell them "yeah, I've got firearms".

    I have been pulled over once while living here. I had a "Guns Save Lives" sticker and a VCDL sticker on my vehicle. It was a MoCo officer that pulled me over (expired NC tags) and he did NOT ask me if I had firearms. I think he was so excited about writing a $70 ticket for the tags that he didn't even see my stickers, because the MD AG and MSP have issued official policies in the last year that the presence of ANY pro-2A stickers on a vehicle constitute "elevated threat levels" and are grounds for "exercising extreme caution for officer safety", especially if they are on a vehicle with out-of-state tags.

    I was fully expecting to get the "full monty" because of my stickers, but for some reason, I didn't. Perhaps it was because of my iPhone sitting on the dashboard, with an audio-recording app clearly running on the screen--I don't know. Heck, for all I know, my name comes up n the MD database as being some sort of "well-versed 1A/2A Activist" an there is a "do not provoke" tag on me.

    Anyway, the bottom line is if you can avoid MD, DO IT. If you can't avoid, then gas up and eat before you "cross the moat" out of VA. There are plenty of places to eat and get gas in VA on the MD border. Stopping presents the risk of being spotted and harassed by LE.

    AND if you engage in commerce in MD you are giving tax money to the MD State Treasury, which goes to further their restrictive regime here "inside the moat". Every penny spent in MD goes toward further 1A, 2A, 4A and 5A restrictions of MD citizens and any wayward travelers who may have the misfortune to cross the border into this god-forsaken serfdom.

    One more thing--if you travel through MD with firearms, the BEST thing to remember is to simply NOT give any LEO the excuse to pull you over in the first place. Have your tags up to date. Make sure your lights are all working properly. Drive safely and follow the speed limits and obey traffic laws. And don't stop unless you ABSOLUTELY have to.

    Good luck with your trip....
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-30-2012 at 01:35 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  18. #18
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Fortunately, for the very few times I have traversed portions of MD, I have never been stopped...but then that is what cruise control is for, set it about 1 mph BELOW the limit (or if you are 100% confident in both you cruise control and your speedometer, exactly the speed limit) and forget it. Like IL, and NJ, I will go out of my way to NOT drive in MD.

    I have never been asked if I was armed, in any state, but I do have my own answer if I was asked. "I have nothing illegal". Does not matter if they ask if you are armed, have any weapons, or have anything that should "concern" them.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post

    that is what cruise control is for, set it about 1 mph BELOW the limit (or if you are 100% confident in both you cruise control and your speedometer, exactly the speed limit) and forget it.
    I was probably at one point behind you shaking my head in displeasure. lol
    The MD Speed Limits are slow enough already!

    But I dont really blame you for setting your CC just to be safe.

    I do however usually go 5MPH over the limit on interstates in MD and pass right on by MDSP speed traps and they never have pulled me over.

    A cop would have to be a true hard ass to pull someone over for 5MPH over. But Im sure there are a few of them that will do it.
    Last edited by Sig229; 04-30-2012 at 04:29 PM.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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