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New guy - A pondering I have had about the Zimmerman case.

Grizz

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Apr 13, 2012
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Hello all, new guy here.

I have been lurking about for some time now, and have found this forum to be very informative and interesting. I have had my CPL for two years now and have occasionally OCd out of convenience, but have recently been considering OC as my primary method... which leads to my question:

If Florida laws had allowed OC and Zimmerman had actually been OCing when he was following Mr. Martin, could this whole incident have had a different outcome? (aka: Martin had a second thought and decided not to "attack" Zimmerman, and everyone goes home at the end of the day)

Grizz
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Welcome.

If you accept the premise that Martin attacked Zimmerman, even then, I don't see OC necessarily as a deterrent. Some people, even if they have a gun pointed at their face, continue forward.

Then again, one could argue that if a man is chasing you in the night with a gun at his hip, and he is not LEO, then you might be right in defending your life, limb, and grave bodily harm. I don't know about anyone else but a man is chasing me at night with a handgun at his hip, I am going to assume he is going to use it.
 
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Jeff Hayes

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Welcome.

If you accept the premise that Martin attacked Zimmerman, even then, I don't see OC necessarily as a deterrent. Some people, even if they have a gun pointed at their face, continue forward.

Then again, one could argue that if a man is chasing you in the night with a gun at his hip, and he is not LEO, then you might be right in defending your life, limb, and grave bodily harm. I don't know about anyone else but a man is chasing me at night with a handgun at his hip, I am going to assume he is going to use it.

In Florida how would you know if he had a hand gun on his hip or anywhere else for that matter, OC is unlawful in Florida. Just asking!
 

Grizz

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Good point. I do agree that Zimmerman may have been just a wee bit overzealous in trying to catch a potential crimial.

This incident has also set a good example of why it would have been priceless to have an audio recorder... may just be my next purchase :)
 

MatieA

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Hello all, new guy here.

<<snip

If Florida laws had allowed OC and Zimmerman had actually been OCing when he was following Mr. Martin, could this whole incident have had a different outcome? (aka: Martin had a second thought and decided not to "attack" Zimmerman, and everyone goes home at the end of the day)

Grizz

In Florida how would you know if he had a hand gun on his hip or anywhere else for that matter, OC is unlawful in Florida. Just asking!

Read the first post.. Here I quoted it for you so you don't have to scroll up.
 

j4l

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Lighting/visibility considerations at the time/scene aside, had Z been legaly OC, and had M a likely chance of clearLY seeing Z's sidearm, I do think this would probably have had a very different outcome.
There is, of course, always the chance-as mentioned above, that M could have -if this were the case- seen a sidearm, and acted anyway, as Natural Selection makes sure to include more than a few morons in our midst, but..somehow, I think things would have gone differently.

Most folks seeing a sidearm on someone tend to moderate their behavior, if for no other reason to avoid having that thing aimed or fired at them, so they can get away and back to whatever they were up to. In fact, seeing a visible sidearm may have given M pause to consider that maybe this IS a LEO of some sort.

But I also think that if this were an OC case, here, it may be a double-edged sword. I'd hardly have preferred this to have been a 1st test-case of OC self-defense, had our cowardly legislators passed HB790 last year.
 
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FireStar M40

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Florida Open Carry..

Orphan said..

In Florida how would you know if he had a hand gun on his hip or anywhere else for that matter, OC is unlawful in Florida. Just asking!

Actually it's NOT! It just depends upon the situation and circumstances. In fact, under some of those above mentioned situations and circumstances the Police willingly overlook it.

FireStar M40
 

OC for ME

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Given that a cop would have been dressed like a cop, Martin likely assumed Zimmerman was not a cop. Cops typically will investigate if something seems odd or out of place to them. A Cop typically would not have behaved in the manner it is reported that Zimmerman behaved, a cop would make contact with Martin, IDing himself.
 

ccwinstructor

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Yuma, Arizona, USA
I have had the same thought. OC would likely have defused the situation.

Hello all, new guy here.

I have been lurking about for some time now, and have found this forum to be very informative and interesting. I have had my CPL for two years now and have occasionally OCd out of convenience, but have recently been considering OC as my primary method... which leads to my question:

If Florida laws had allowed OC and Zimmerman had actually been OCing when he was following Mr. Martin, could this whole incident have had a different outcome? (aka: Martin had a second thought and decided not to "attack" Zimmerman, and everyone goes home at the end of the day)

Grizz

It seems the likely outcome. If Martin had seen that Zimmerman was carrying, he likely would have just gone back to his father's girlfriend's condo. If he had seen it when the two met again, he likely would not have attacked.

Of course, we do not know just how well lit the scene was.
 

The Wolfhound

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Could have changed the dynamics entirely.

Martin could have called police about this "armed guy" following him around. OC could be a complete game changer. If the premise that Martin attacked Zimmerman is true, then he very well might have rethought his course of action.
 
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Viking

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Arizona
Use of force continuim

IMHO, the real tragedy is that Mr. Zimmerman wasn't as prepared as he could've been for a confrontation. OC spray, a collapsable baton and
especially a really good flashlight may have prevented the situation from becoming lethal. When I was an armed security guard years ago, my
two most used devices were 1) my portable radio and 2) my d-cell mag-light. I had a standard baton, got an ASP now, much easier to carry. Unfortunately, we'll never know just what Mr. Martin's mindset was and I'm still not sure how much training Mr. Zimmerman had to obtain his CCW.
 

Grizz

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Apr 13, 2012
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Thanks for the replies.

IMHO, the real tragedy is that Mr. Zimmerman wasn't as prepared as he could've been for a confrontation. OC spray, a collapsable baton and
especially a really good flashlight may have prevented the situation from becoming lethal. When I was an armed security guard years ago, my
two most used devices were 1) my portable radio and 2) my d-cell mag-light. I had a standard baton, got an ASP now, much easier to carry. Unfortunately, we'll never know just what Mr. Martin's mindset was and I'm still not sure how much training Mr. Zimmerman had to obtain his CCW.

Preparedness is always a good thing to consider, although I question the legality of civilians carrying a baton in most places. Please correct me if I am wrong.

It would also seem there is a major lack of situational awareness if the guy you are following manages to sneak back up on you... this of course all based on the alleged stories.

In regards to CCW training, I can attest to poor standards through my own experience. The CPL class I took essentially didn't cover anything regarding the safe handling of firearms. There were several first time shooters standing around at the range with fingers resting on triggers :eek:
 

since9

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If Florida laws had allowed OC and Zimmerman had actually been OCing when he was following Mr. Martin, could this whole incident have had a different outcome? (aka: Martin had a second thought and decided not to "attack" Zimmerman, and everyone goes home at the end of the day)

Grizz

Welcome to the forum, Grizz!

There's a primary and secondary reason police OC, and the primary reason is deterrence. People around here don't scare easily at the sight of firearms, but they most certainly sport a change in behavior at the sight of someone OCing. They're more distant and guarded, but they're more polite, as well.

The secondary reason is speed of employment. Having used the local PD's firearms training simulator, I can tell you things can go bad in a split-second. You'd don't have time to fool with concealment.
 
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Viking

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Batons & pepper spray

Thanks, Grizz, for reminding me about various weapons laws in other states. Here in AZ, we can (and do) carry everything that's legal
almost everywhere we go. In AZ, batons are considered a "dangerous instrument" as opposed to a "deadly weapon" although certianly
deadly under certian circumstances. I have no idea what Fla's law on the subject is. If legal, it behooves anyone wanting to carry any
weapon, deadly or not, get qualified instruction in it's use. To not do so leaves one open to criminal & civil penalties, fines, etc. ! Also, he
allowed himself (Z) to be surprised, which is a serious no-no. A good blast of light from a powerful flashlight would have allowed Z any
number of options, mostly far less than lethal. A canister of powerful (civilian legal) pepper spray would have most likely altered M's
attitude once given a goood facefull, that's IF it were legal to carry in Fla. ! BTW, in AZ, we don't have "concealed handgun permits"
as such, we have "concealed weapon permits" and this is literal. Any gun, knife, baton, pepper spray, etc. that's legal to own AND CARRY
is legal to conceal. And all without a "permission slip" from the nanny-state, if one chooses that option !!
 

Dreamer

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Martin could have called police about this "armed guy" following him around. OC could be a complete game changer. If the premise that Martin attacked Zimmerman is true, then he very well might have rethought his course of action.

And it must also be remembered that HAD Zimmerman been OCing, he would have been summarily arrested and his handgun confiscated, because FL does NOT allow OC--even if you have a permit.

So these "if Zimmerman had been OCing" arguments are just silly, because OC isn't legal in FL, and therefore OC was NOT a lawful and legal option for carry.
 

rushcreek2

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Assuming that the common areas encompassed by the real property comprising this gated townhome community are in fact PRIVATE PROPERTY enjoyed in common by the respective unit owners, and their assigns (renters), and Florida law does not prohibit OC on one's own (even held in common) property...HOA rules/regulations would most likely address the question regarding legality of OC at the scene.

As to the the "question" of deterrent value of OC - The realization that your "opponent" is wearing a holstered deadly weapon tends to serve as an instant relief valve for aggressive conduct. Menacing behavior can amazingly transform instantly into a willingness to disengage in the presence of a holstered deadly weapon.

At Zimmerman's probable cause/bail hearing one of the investigating LEO's admitted under oath that he was aware of NO EVIDENCE countering Zimmerman's claim that Martin initially attacked him. To date the preponderance of available evidence supports Zimmerman's self defense claim. Therefore it is a reasonable position to take, at this juncture at least, that Martin did in fact attack Zimmerman. As to the logical point often stated that we should await the introduction of ALL of the evidence in this case - OK....I'm waiting............

Yes - evidence MAY come forth countering Zimmerman's claim, but until that happens score = Zimmerman 1 - Martin 0.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Buchanan on Zimmerman 25:15.

[video=youtube;io-Gp48txdo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=io-Gp48txdo#t=1473s[/video]
 
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since9

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Assuming that the common areas encompassed by the real property comprising this gated townhome community are in fact PRIVATE PROPERTY enjoyed in common by the respective unit owners, and their assigns (renters), and Florida law does not prohibit OC on one's own (even held in common) property...HOA rules/regulations would most likely address the question regarding legality of OC at the scene.

Given that Zimmerman was lawfully CCing, any such "illegality" of carry would be a matter between the HOA/Landlord, and not a criminal matter.
 

since9

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Thanks, Grizz, for reminding me about various weapons laws in other states. Here in AZ, we can (and do) carry everything that's legal
almost everywhere we go. In AZ, batons are considered a "dangerous instrument" as opposed to a "deadly weapon" although certianly
deadly under certian circumstances.

Anything can be deadly under certain circumstances. A rock from my garden. My 16-lb dumbbells. My large flat-head screwdriver. The two-foot piece of 2x4 in my closet. Heck - WATER can be deadly, particular when it's inside a coke bottle I put in the freezer to increase its thermal mass.

The idea of classifying a weapon as "deadly" makes about as much sense as hitching a wagon train to a dead donkey.

Speaking of which, the most recent nearby murder happened a couple of months ago at Hondos, a local sports bar. The "deadly weapon?" A rock. Colorado's pretty much chock full of them, even out on the prairie. I think that's one reason why they don't seem to care very much about OC.
 

Tyoung

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Open carry may deter some crime, but it also makes you a target in others. IMO if you have a concealed permit use it. I like the element of surprise.
 
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