The GFZ question

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Huh? Any private property, not just YOUR private property, you can OC within the 1000' buffer without a CCL. So, if you are at a mall next to a school, you can OC up to the property line, 1 inch from the school property. If you are at a friends house whose backyard is adjacent to a school, you can OC in his yard, if you walk down the street across from a school and stay on the other side of the sidewalk so that you are walking in people's front yards, you may OC (might get charged with trespassing, but not a GFSZ violation).

If you aren't going to take our advice, why are you here asking questions? Is your instructor a lawyer? If not, why are you taking his advice? The only legal advice is from a lawyer that you have a client relationship with.

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Yes I'll be talking to a lawyer eventually on this issue. The reason I keep repeating the issue is that enough people will reply saying the same thing and that will settle my mind a bit because I am afraid that there are leos who will do whatever they will to arrest me. In other words even though we have our rights to OC with or without a permit and CC with a permit, I am not sure it will be respected by local leos. Look what happened to MKEgal or what the MPD are doing?

Law abider said:

Yes I'll be talking to a lawyer eventually on this issue. The reason I keep repeating the issue is that enough people will reply saying the same thing and that will settle my mind a bit because I am afraid that there are leos who will do whatever they will to arrest me. In other words even though we have our rights to OC with or without a permit and CC with a permit, I am not sure it will be respected by local leos. Look what happened to MKEgal or what the MPD are doing?

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Well, yeah!

A good cop having a bad day with you doing EVERYTHING right might get you shot and/or arrested. That can happen even if you don't carry.

I can guarantee you that I really don't plan on getting hassled by the cops but sometimes it happens. We were just having dinner at Culvers in Madison and got hassled. We broke no laws. Brad Krause was planting a tree in his front yard and got arrested. Unfortunately, everyone is a human and we can't guarantee a good outcome. All we can do is be prepared.

Law abider said:

WITH a WI CCL, you can open carry or conceal carry a state-defined weapon within 1000' of a grades 1-12 school.
WithOUT a WI CCL, you cannot open carry or conceal carry a state-defined weapon within 1000' of a grades 1-12 school.

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Auric said:

If you have a CC license, you can open carry or conceal carry in the GFSZ. [EXCEPT on the property of the school!]
If you have no license, you can open carry on private property within a 1000' of school ground.
Or if you're on your own property or other land or buildings that you legally reside or occupy (e.g. land, your residence, your place of business) then you can conceal without a license if you choose.

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Added that clarification, but basically Auric's answer is the most concise & correct that's been presented so far.

Federal law doesn't distinguish between the school property & the public property that's within 1000' of the edge of that school property.
Wisconsin law does.
Wisconsin only allows licensees, on-duty LEO, & criminals to be within 1000' on public property,
and only on-duty LEO & criminals on the school grounds. (With the few other exceptions borrowed from Federal law, but how likely do you think it is one of those will be granted?)
In other states (UT being an example) if you have a license issued by the state you can walk into a school armed & it's perfectly legal.

Law abider said:

The reason I keep repeating the issue is that enough people will reply saying the same thing and that will settle my mind a bit

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You could also read the laws.
Links have been posted above, both to the WI law & the federal code (which is linked from the WI law).
Start with 948.605 (2): Possession of firearm in school zone.
That has a link to 18 USC 922 & lists the exact bits which WI wants to apply to us.

I am afraid that there are leos who will do whatever they will to arrest me.

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There still are, yes. But I think that thanks to some high-profile cases where WCI kicked butt & took names most LEO will follow the law.
Most do anyway, but there are too many who don't & way too many who stand by & don't stop their co-workers from comitting crimes.

MKEgal said:

You could also read the laws.
Links have been posted above, both to the WI law & the federal code (which is linked from the WI law).
Start with 948.605 (2): Possession of firearm in school zone.
That has a link to 18 USC 922 & lists the exact bits which WI wants to apply to us.


There still are, yes. But I think that thanks to some high-profile cases where WCI kicked butt & took names most LEO will follow the law.
Most do anyway, but there are too many who don't & way too many who stand by & don't stop their co-workers from comitting crimes.

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Thanks MKEgal I'll start with all the links above and yours. Paul and others I don't mean to go in circles. For some reason in my mind the GFSZ issue is fogged up. As with all of you you are confident in different things and you are all confident in the CCL laws. I am not yet but I am going to be. Thanks for all for their input. First I am going to join WI carry. I promised Nick. Then to read ALL the statutes. Hope I can meet many of you in person in the future!

Law abider said:

Thanks MKEgal I'll start with all the links above and yours. Paul and others I don't mean to go in circles. For some reason in my mind the GFSZ issue is fogged up. As with all of you you are confident in different things and you are all confident in the CCL laws. I am not yet but I am going to be. Thanks for all for their input. First I am going to join WI carry. I promised Nick. Then to read ALL the statutes. Hope I can meet many of you in person in the future!

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Do you have your CCL? If so, then just stay off of the school grounds themselves.

Herr Heckler Koch said:

.
1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

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Herr Heckler Koch said:

No gun carrier can be on public property (as the highway) within 1000 feet of and not in or on school grounds.

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You are obviously confused regarding this subsection. This subsection contains an exception and also an exception to the exception.
948.605(2)(b)(1r) provides an exception for a licensee or an out-of-state licensee unless (except if) they are in or on the grounds of a school.
To put this in a FAQ format and more easily understood language, a licensee or an out-of-state licensee may possess a handgun within a GFSZ but they may not possess it in or on the grounds of the school without qualifying for one of the other exceptions.

Interceptor_Knight said:

You are obviously confused regarding this subsection. This subsection contains an exception and also an exception to the exception.
948.605(2)(b)(1r) provides an exception for a licensee or an out-of-state licensee unless (except if) they are in or on the grounds of a school.
To put this in a FAQ format and more easily understood language, a licensee or an out-of-state licensee may possess a handgun within a GFSZ but they may not possess it in or on the grounds of the school without qualifying for one of the other exceptions.

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Do you have your CCL? If so, then just stay off of the school grounds themselves. .

THANKS INTERCEPTOR THANKS PAUL you both answered my question! I should have originally stated city street in the GFSZ. I could have avoided a lot of confusion!! Stupid me!:monkey

This has been interesting to follow, but I have some food for thought. First to quote 18 USC 922 (q)(2)(B)(ii):

"if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtain s such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."

The BATF interprets this to mean that the only exception to the GFSZ is a permit / license held by a resident of a given state. However, that is not what the black letters on the white page say. And, this is particularly true when viewed through the text of the WI Statute.

Take the wording of the Wisconsin statute which clearly states that a WI license and an out-of-state licensee are clearly exempted from the GFSZ; provided such persons do not enter the school grounds proper. Wisconsin has in essence created a statutory method to license out-of-state residents by relying on a another state's permit /license. The WI requirement that it will only recognize out-of-state permits issued by states that conduct NICS background checks meets the Federal requirement that the State in which the school zone is located has indeed met the requirement to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."

Food for thought.

jpm84092 said:

...The WI requirement that it will only recognize out-of-state permits issued by states that conduct NICS background checks meets the Federal requirement that the State in which the school zone is located has indeed met the requirement to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."

Food for thought.

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Although the BATF would not agree as evidenced in THIS LETTER The WI DOJ obviously feels this is Kosher. Unless someone is actually charged under the Federal Code in WI who is a out-of-state licensee, it is irrelevant and we will never find out.

With regard to possession of a firearm on school grounds, there is a good citation at this post:

http://forum.opencarry.org./forums/...hool-grounds&p=1653219&viewfull=1#post1653219

Act 35 only contains changes made to some gun statutes. In the case of WI statute 948.605, it does not even contain the whole statute. This statute was first effective Sept. 1, 1991 and has been changed several times since. As a general rule, it is difficult to completely understand the law that is in effect, by reading only the legislative bills or published acts. You usually need to look at the statutes after the changes are merged into them, and even then you may need to drill down in places where one statute references other laws, such as:

948.605(1)(a) "Encased" has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).

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is not clear until you look up 167.31(1)(b)

If you click on the ".html view" link below, you will be able to read the statute section, and if you then click on one of the references, it will drill down to the referenced part of the law. This is much handier to use, than a statute .pdf or the ACT35 .pdf.

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605?view=section

From the horses mouth. It is settled for me

I shot an E mail to Glenn Grothman and Jolene his staffer shot it to the DOJ. Here it is. Remember that I sent the E mail while we were discussing the issue and it was still not clear to me till Paul and E6CHEVRON replied.

To: Grothman, Glenn
Subject: 4-25- SENT TO DOJ - A question on the Gun Free School Zone


Glenn:
After having read Act 35. I am still unclear about ONE issue. I can't seem to get a direct answer.
I know that we can OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A conceal to carry permit, but we have to be OUTSIDE the 1000ft gun free school zone.
However when we are given a CONCEAL TO CARRY permit do we then have the right to OPEN CARRY OR CONCEAL CARRY WITHIN the 1000ft school zone on a city street?
I understand that NO ONE CAN CARRY on actual school property.

Reply: From: Rinehart, Mark W. [mailto:RinehartMW@DOJ.STATE.WI.US]
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:50 AM
To: Sen.Grothman
Subject: RE: Constituent Assistance Needed: A question on the Gun Free School Zone


Act 35 created s. 948.605 (2) (b) 1r., which exempts a person with a valid CCW permit from the prohibition against possessing a firearm within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605:lol:

Law abider said:

I am not playing games. I am trying to MAKE SURE that the GFSZ aka the 1000ft rule ONLY APPLIES TO OC WITHOUT A PERMIT and not to those WHO HAVE A CCL. If you have a CCL YOU MAY OC OR CC WITHIN THE GFGSZs BUT NOT ON SCHOOL PROPERTY. That is what my CCL insatructor wrote back. It is imperative that I understand that or else I will find myself behind bars and since this is blog consists of opinions and not to be used as a tool to interpret law. And since my property is not within the GFSZ I don't have to worry about the rest of the law pertaining to the matter.

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Law Abider....I think you thought E6's comment was directed at you...it wasn't. It was in response to Herr Heckler...

I'm glad you got the answer finally! It's really quite simple: With CWL stay off school property....without CWL stay off school property AND public property within 1000 feet of said school.

rcawdor57 said:

Law Abider....I think you thought E6's comment was directed at you...it wasn't. It was in response to Herr Heckler...

I'm glad you got the answer finally! It's really quite simple: With CWL stay off school property....without CWL stay off school property AND public property within 1000 feet of said school.

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Thanks rcawdoe57. Sorry E6! I didn't see that. I am 100% more confident today than yesterday. Hope there is a get together with Cap'tn Nemo and me here in Ellsworth this summer for OC. Need to break in.:lol:

Maybe If You Carry A .9 mm Firearm

GreenCountyPete said:

and if you go to drop your child off at school you may drive onto school grounds , but may not handle the gun , or get out of your car , and the gun should stay concealed

this only applies if your are picking up dropping off or have business on school grounds .

this is all of course provided you have a CCL


unless you don't qualify for one , are admittedly apposed to a CCL for some reason , every one should get one

it is .83 cents a month , yes , it is a tax we shouldn't have to pay , but there are lots of other taxes i shouldn't have to pay either.

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This would be a bargain .83 cents x 12 months = 10 cents/year (50 cents for five).

apjonas said:

This would be a bargain .83 cents x 12 months = 10 cents/year (50 cents for five).

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I loled.

Law abider:

If You have a Wisconsin Permit, then, You can Ignore The 1000 Foot Rule!

..., do Me a Favor though, just do NOT go into a School Building or onto School Property though!

aadvark

aadvark said:

Law abider:

If You have a Wisconsin Permit, then, You can Ignore The 1000 Foot Rule!

..., do Me a Favor though, just do NOT go into a School Building or onto School Property though!

aadvark

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Yep. I got that when the DOJ sent me the reply via Glen Grothman. Thanks buddy.

Confusing Who You Are with Where You Are/What You Have

Some of the comments indicate a minor mixup. The BATF does not require you to be a resident of the state in which the GFSZ is located to carry via permit. Rather the permit must be issued by the state of the GFSZ in question. So except in cases where a state issues to non-residents (whether the same permit as residents or a differentiated non-resident permit) you cannot carry in a state other than you own (and then only in conformance with state/local law as applicable). Wisconsin is a little strange in that it takes away the ability to carry on school grounds and purports to grant "in-state" status to OOS licensees. Whether or not this latter provision will fly (I think not) is an open question. A good argument could be made that the "license" is not a piece of plastic but permission granted to do something that is otherwise unlawful. Any OOSL want to be a test case or file a declaratory judgment action?

apjonas said:

Some of the comments indicate a minor mixup. The BATF does not require you to be a resident of the state in which the GFSZ is located to carry via permit. Rather the permit must be issued by the state of the GFSZ in question. So except in cases where a state issues to non-residents (whether the same permit as residents or a differentiated non-resident permit) you cannot carry in a state other than you own (and then only in conformance with state/local law as applicable). Wisconsin is a little strange in that it takes away the ability to carry on school grounds and purports to grant "in-state" status to OOS licensees. Whether or not this latter provision will fly (I think not) is an open question. A good argument could be made that the "license" is not a piece of plastic but permission granted to do something that is otherwise unlawful. Any OOSL want to be a test case or file a declaratory judgment action?

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All very good points.

The issue of the state of WI issuing 'virtual' licenses is not without precedent. MT is one state that has similar wording in their laws. It is true, however, that this has not been specifically ruled on by a Federal court so a Federal prosecutor could at least make your life difficult.