The GFZ question

ksks · May 2, 2012

Re-edited

This is the best I can figure...

FEDERAL
18 USC Sec. 921 (25)
The term "school zone" means
1. in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
2. within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

US 18 USC 922 (q) (2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license

This seems to say that the federal law does not allow you within 1000 ft of a school. But, you are OK on school grounds or within 1000ft if you have a CCL.

Wisconsin

WI-DOJ
A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.

948.605 (1)
(c) "School zone" means any of the following:
1. In or on the grounds of a school.
2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

WI - 948.605
(2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

(b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
a. Note (WI) does not include following federal law:
1. (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located
and the law of the State requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement
authorities of the State verify that the individual
is qualified under law to receive the license
2. (iii) that is -
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle
1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

At first this seems to say that WI allows you to carry on grounds with a CCL, but…no.

-It looks like (WI) 1m gives permission based on the US code for CCL carry on grounds and within 1000ft. But, WI excludes ii, which actually refers to the Federal exemption for a State license. So, since WI excludes the federal allowance for on grounds and 1000ft, it has to then add an exemption back in with 1r. But, WI limits the exemption to only carrying within 1000ft, not the "on grounds" part. Its awkwardly written, but seems to say {Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee (can carry in the school zone)}

1r also expands the exemption into the WI law for people who have the WI CCL, or an OOS CCL.

Under Federal law para (iii), it says the firearm has to be in a locked container. In WI 948.605 (2) (b) 3 a, it says it has to be "encased," but says nothing about a "locked" container. WI 167.31(1)(b) says encased means enclosed in a case that is completely zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part of the firearm exposed.

Citizenry in general is prohibited from carrying in a school zone. If you have a CCL, then you can carry within 1000ft of a school but not on a school's grounds or in buildings.

Feds/WI differ on OOS licensees:
Feds say, "licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located." So, a resident of the State would be OK. A non-resident with a OOS license from that State would be OK.
WI says, folks with a WI license are OK. Folks with another State license would be OK.
-- So, if you are an OOS licensee in WI, WI authorities would leave you alone. Feds could arrest you for violating federal law.
-- obviously open to interpretation.

Federal law says you have to have a locking container. WI law says just enclosed in a case.

Interesting too, that both talk about firearms, not concealable arms. So, it would seem these laws apply to both.
-So, does this mean only people with ccl can carry long guns within a school zone, unless encased (or in a locked container) or locked in a rack?

Interceptor_Knight · May 2, 2012

ksks said:
-So, does this mean only people with ccl can carry long guns within a school zone, unless encased or locked in a rack?

Yes. There is no difference mentioned between a handgun or a long gun.
Only licensees or OOS licensees may carry within 1000 feet of school grounds and nobody may carry in or on the grounds of a school unless the firearm is unloaded and encased, locked in a rack on a vehicle or you qualify for one of the hunting exceptions. There is no parking lot or "dropping off/picking up" exception for licensees or anyone else regarding firearms.

paul@paul-fisher.com · May 3, 2012

ksks said:
1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

At first this seems to say that WI allows you to carry with a CCL, but…

-It looks like (WI) 1m gives permission, as does US code, for CCL carry on grounds and within 1000ft.

What you are missing is that WI specifically doesn't reference 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii) so that is why they have 1r. 1r is used instead of the Federal (ii).

Law abider · May 3, 2012

ksks said:
Some thoughts...

This seems to say that the federal law does not allow you within 1000 ft of a school. But, you are OK on school grounds or within 1000ft if you have a CCL.

Wisconsin

Paul is right. Read read the response I got from the DOJ via Glenn Grothman. I too was confused about this issue. You are NOT OK TO BE ON SCHOOL GROUNDS.

apjonas · May 3, 2012

Ask Yourself

ksks said:
Interesting too, that both talk about firearms, not concealable arms. So, it would seem these laws apply to both.
-So, does this mean only people with ccl can carry long guns within a school zone, unless encased or locked in a rack?

What is Wisconsin licensing me to do?

E6chevron · May 3, 2012

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
What you are missing is that WI specifically doesn't reference 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii) so that is why they have 1r. 1r is used instead of the Federal (ii).

Paul is right on this. Let me expand a little.

in 948.605, Wisconsin references 5 of 7 exceptions to the possession of firearms in school zone prohibition that are in the Federal 18USC922(q)(2). The ones missing by reference are (ii) and (iii).

These two exceptions are specifically stated in the Wisconsin statute, but are not exactly the same as in the Federal code.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605

This subdivision is used by Wisconsin instead of referencing the Federal 18USC922(q)(2)(ii).

948.605(2)(b)1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

The above subdivision is easier to understand, and has the same meaning, if it is written this way: A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school

This subdivision is used by Wisconsin instead of referencing the Federal 18USC922(q)(2)(iii).

948.605(2)(b)3.That is not loaded and is:
948.605(2)(b)3. a. Encased; or
948.605(2)(b)3. b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

Also, be careful when using the term "School Zone". It's legal meaning in WI 948.605 (and 18USC922) is:

948.605(1)(c) (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
_ 1. In or on the grounds of a school.
_ 2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

A lot of people seem to think that the term "school zone", does not include the school grounds itself. That is not correct.

--------------
It is somewhat difficult to find the GFSZ portion of the Federal law.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title18/pdf/USCODE-2010-title18-partI-chap44-sec922.pdf

Open the above link, and then in your .pdf viewer (probably Adobe Reader) press the F4 key and type into the search box:

(2)(A)

and press the Enter key

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18USC922(2)B)(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State,

and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

You may notice, that different from Wisconsin law, the Federal code allows a licensee to carry anywhere in the shool zone (does not exclude school grounds).

Federal law also requires locked firearm storage for a non-licensee in the school zone (off private property). It does not allow a simple unlocked case.

-------

I like to summarize 948.605(2)(b)1r. with something like: A CC licensee can possess a loaded and uncased firearm in the doughnut that is up to 1,000 feet around the school grounds.

Auric, would probably put it a little cleaner, by simply saying: A CC licensee can OC or CC a firearm in the school zone, but not on the school grounds.

Remember, this is only one statute. All the other statutes are still in effect... Under the influence carry, prohibition/posting of private/public property, jails, courthouses, brandishing, machine guns, etc.

NoTolerance · May 4, 2012

Are there any pushes being made to get the 1000' rule dropped in general? With the rule changes to OC in a vehicle, the 1000' rule has become (even more) ridiculous. The expectation that I should constantly be aware of where every school in this state is out of fear that I may be driving while OCing within an almost 1/4 mile radius of the property line of said school is asinine. Can you imagine getting pulled over and then discovering you're currently 978' from a school property line that you can't even see? All it takes is the wrong cop on the wrong day.

paul@paul-fisher.com · May 4, 2012

NoTolerance said:
Are there any pushes being made to get the 1000' rule dropped in general? With the rule changes to OC in a vehicle, the 1000' rule has become (even more) ridiculous. The expectation that I should constantly be aware of where every school in this state is out of fear that I may be driving while OCing within an almost 1/4 mile radius of the property line of said school is asinine. Can you imagine getting pulled over and then discovering you're currently 978' from a school property line that you can't even see? All it takes is the wrong cop on the wrong day.

The answer is Yes, however, that is a Federal law so the 1st step is to elect a good, pro 2A Senator in WI to replace Kohl, who was the author or at least a sponsor of this monstrosity.

As to your scenario, the good thing is that both the state and Federal GFSZ laws say 'knowingly' so when the cops ask 'did you know you were 978' from a school', say 'no'.

NoTolerance · May 4, 2012

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
As to your scenario, the good thing is that both the state and Federal GFSZ laws say 'knowingly' so when the cops ask 'did you know you were 978' from a school', say 'no'.

Good point. I wonder if that would hold up were I driving past a school, though. You can hardly throw a rock without hitting a school around here.

Shotgun · May 4, 2012

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
The answer is Yes, however, that is a Federal law so the 1st step is to elect a good, pro 2A Senator in WI to replace Kohl, who was the author or at least a sponsor of this monstrosity.

As to your scenario, the good thing is that both the state and Federal GFSZ laws say 'knowingly' so when the cops ask 'did you know you were 978' from a school', say 'no'.

The odds are that if you are 978' from a school the cops don't know it either. Remember there was that one case where the police had to resort to a laser range finder to try to figure out the distance. One the other hand, you might be 1030' from a school and get hauled in due the difficulty in determining the precise distance. But of course that would be a better predicament to be in. Bottom line, the GFSZ is an insane law. Even it's most ardent supporters probably realize that the only real purpose or effect it has is to mess with law-abiding gun owners because criminals ignore it and rarely is anyone prosecuted for violating it. And when it is prosecuted it usually turns out to be some poor guy who was innocently passing through.

Shotgun · May 4, 2012

NoTolerance said:
Good point. I wonder if that would hold up were I driving past a school, though. You can hardly throw a rock without hitting a school around here.

Don't say that. Some idiot will propose a Rock Free School Zone. It's for the CHILDREN!!!!!!

Jason in WI · May 4, 2012

NoTolerance said:
Are there any pushes being made to get the 1000' rule dropped in general?

Ron Paul has introduced legislation to repeal the GFSZ in the past. I believe he introduced a bill last June/July.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

apjonas · May 4, 2012

I Guess I Was Too Subtle

apjonas said:
What is Wisconsin licensing me to do?

Wisconsin's license is for certain enumerated weapons. Long guns are not included. No license is need to open carry (in general) Therefore the federal exception for licensees does not apply. Carrying a long gun within a GFSZ, with or without a license, is a violation of federal law (unless another exception applies). Curiously, the language of the Wisconsin statutes seems to permit long guns for licensees. In most other sections where licensees are an exception, it specifically states "handgun." Don't discount the possibility that a judge could determine that long guns are a non-no under state law. Since long guns run afoul of the federal GFSZ, probably best to not to carry on the strength of the WI CWL.

NoTolerance · May 4, 2012

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
The answer is Yes, however, that is a Federal law so the 1st step is to elect a good, pro 2A Senator in WI to replace Kohl, who was the author or at least a sponsor of this monstrosity.

WI was able to write in an exception to this Federal law for CCL holders, correct? Or does the Federal law allow for the exception in the case of licensed carriers? Regardless, I guess I'm starting to see the conundrum here: how can you write in an exception for OC, since we don't license the right? The only course of action is to do away with at least the 1000' rule, if not the entire myth of the GFSZ at the Federal level.

Shotgun said:
Don't say that. Some idiot will propose a Rock Free School Zone. It's for the CHILDREN!!!!!!

I literally laughed out loud! :lol:

E6chevron · May 4, 2012

Good comments, interesting questions.

-----------
The Federal and State statutes, use the words "knowingly" or "knows" in them. For most people, there is not much value in the "individual who knowingly possesses a firearm" clause unless you can make a case for forgetting that you had the firearm with you, or that some one else left the fiream in your possession: left it in your jacket pocket, glovebox, trunk, birthday present...

However, the "individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the school zone/grounds" clause, can make a great difference. If arrested and charged, not knowing you were on school zone/grounds, could be a defense. (the first time!) If confronted by LEO about breaking this law, you could say you did not know about the school zone/grounds (if true), and they could let you go. They would be justified in telling you when first confronted, either unload and properly store the weapon now, or leave the school zone/grounds immediately. You would be wise to comply. At a later time, they would have you hard and fast, if they saw you violating on this same school zone/grounds.

948.605(2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
__ (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony.

Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

----------

The Wisconsin statute is more restrictive than the Federal code with regard to Licensees area to carry in the school zone:

WI: licensees (in/out of state) allowed to possess in the school zone, but the firearm must be loaded and encased in or on the school grounds.

US: licensees (licensed by the state the school zone is in) allowed to possess and carry anywhere in the school zone.

--------

This discussion, serves to illustrate why, at this time, due to Federal law and the laws of other states, it is very valuable to some people, that Wisconsin issues licenses to its residents.

A non-licensed adult, who lives in, works at or visits private property in the school zone, must unload and encase/lock up a firearm before walking or driving onto public property, to avoid violation of the state and federal Gun Free School Zone law.

Teej · May 4, 2012

E6chevron said:
I am disappointed that you have continuted to inaccurately describe or summarize the Wisconsin law with respect to the Gun Free School Zone. It has been explained to you several times with extensive citations of statute, which is further suppported by the DOJ FAQ, and once again you insisted on what you must know are incorrect responses to clear questions.

A smart person, should not play such a stupid game.

Shame.

I'm not surprised.

He also tried to state that it was a good thing that Parabellum was charged with "intentional homicide" instead of "murder".

ksks · May 4, 2012

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
What you are missing is that WI specifically doesn't reference 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii) so that is why they have 1r. 1r is used instead of the Federal (ii).

Paul,

Thank you! I did miss that. Now back to the drawing board...

davegran · May 5, 2012

Shotgun said:
Don't say that. Some idiot will propose a Rock Free School Zone. It's for the CHILDREN!!!!!!

Even though I can't carry as many, I prefer the 1.45 caliber rock over the easier to conceal 32mm since it has better stopping power.... For high velocity work out of a slingshot I prefer the .75 caliber. :dude:

GreenCountyPete · May 13, 2012

page 38 of the DOJ FAQ

The following are exceptions to the prohibition on possessing dangerous weapons on school premises by the following persons:
 A person who uses a weapon solely for school sanctioned purposes. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(a).
 A person who engages in military activities sponsored by the federal or state government when acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(b).
 A person who Is a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(c).
 A person who is participating in a convocation authorized by school authorities in which weapons of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(d).

 A person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(e).

 A person who possesses or uses a bow and arrow or knife while legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(f).
Can a person with a CCW license carry a concealed weapon other than a firearm on school premises?
Generally no, unless the licensee falls within one of the exceptions listed above

ksks · May 13, 2012

But....

948.61 Dangerous weapons other than firearms on school premises.
(1) In this section:
(a) "Dangerous weapon" has the meaning specified in s. 939.22 (10), except "dangerous weapon" does not include any firearm and does include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.

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