Would you draw on this guy?

No, the BG can be subdued and detained by the use of control tactics and restraint techniques.
Semper Fi
Smitty

USMC1911 said:

No, the BG can be subdued and detained by the use of control tactics and restraint techniques.
Semper Fi
Smitty

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but how does one KNOW that before hand, going into the situation? And remember, not everyone knows control/restraint tactics.

jdholmes said:

Indeed...if you are close enough for the close contact pepper spray to be used effectively on the assailant you are likely also close enough or can get close enough for the contact taser.

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Also, a little background on this case, since I haven't seen it mentioned yet. It came out after the fact that the assailant was mentally disabled and off his meds.

And...?

This would have been a good situation for the driver to have had a taser, but I think the drivers might start tasing for just yelling, spitting, etc. so probably not a great idea.



Senator wants bus drivers armed with tasers.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ers-article-1.1062688?localLinksEnabled=false

Anyone else like knives as much as firearms? A Folding Karambit such as Emerson makes. Don't necessarily have to deploy the blade, can us the ring as a a striking tool. Training in a system such as Modern Arnis would develop the blade control and accuracy to allow for less than lethal disabling cuts.

Knives can also come with training blades - i.e. unsharpened and therefore very adept for less than lethal strikes, controls et cetera.

I like knives...I often carry one...but there is something so barbaric about them to me...I dunno...I can't personally view it as an ideal non lethal choice.

There are some very good responses is this thread showing restraint and due caution to the use of deadly force.

The Zimmerman Case going on in Florida is a good example of what one could face even when acting with in the law.

This is just a reminder below on the laws covering use of force in Washington State, reasonable, necessary, person [using][or][offering to use] the force may employ such force and means as a reasonably prudent person would use under the same or similar conditions as they appeared to the person, taking into consideration all of the facts and circumstances known to the person at the time of [and prior to] the incident.

Added emphasis is mine.

The ones responding in the video did a very good job, using a firearm would have endangered others in such close quarters as pepper spray would not be a good option, a hand held taser may have worked if simple restraining would not have.

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WPIC 17.02 Lawful Force—Defense of Self, Others, Property

It is a defense to a charge of __________ that the force [used][attempted][offered to be used] was lawful as defined in this instruction.
[The [use of][attempt to use][offer to use] force upon or toward the person of another is lawful when [used][attempted][offered] [by a person who reasonably believes that [he][she] is about to be injured] [by someone lawfully aiding a person who [he][she] reasonably believes is about to be injured] in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against the person, and when the force is not more than is necessary.]

[The [use of][attempt to use][offer to use] force upon or toward the person of another is lawful when [used][attempted][offered] in preventing or attempting to prevent a malicious trespass or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in that person's possession, and when the force is not more than is necessary.]
The person [using][or][offering to use] the force may employ such force and means as a reasonably prudent person would use under the same or similar conditions as they appeared to the person, taking into consideration all of the facts and circumstances known to the person at the time of [and prior to] the incident.

The [State][City][County] has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the force [used][attempted][offered to be used] by the defendant was not lawful. If you find that the [State][City][County] has not proved the absence of this defense beyond a reasonable doubt, it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty [as to this charge].

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RCW 9A.16.010
Definitions.

In this chapter, unless a different meaning is plainly required:

(1) "Necessary" means that no reasonably effective alternative to the use of force appeared to exist and that the amount of force used was reasonable to effect the lawful purpose intended.

(2) "Deadly force" means the intentional application of force through the use of firearms or any other means reasonably likely to cause death or serious physical injury.

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RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

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RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.

I would have to be there and see exactly where I was in relation to the guy to decide what to do. I personally carry other items for self defense other than a gun and I do have some training. (A six inch adjustable wrench can be used to fix all kinds of problems and keys are a very powerful self defense tool if you know how to use them.) I believe possibly I might try to get behind him and take him down unarmed while his attention was focused elsewhere. I would not be averse to drawing on him if I felt at the moment that there were no other options available. It's hard to tell exactly what the right response is in an emergency unless you are right in the thick of it. There's often times subtleties that are the thin line between the need for a firm voice and the need for a gun.

All that being said, my biggest concern and focus would be the safety of others, not the neutralization of the BG. Commanding the bus driver to stop the bus and then telling everyone to get off and escape may be something to try. When people are afraid they'll often take orders from a firm, confident voice.

I highly recommend that everyone take a self defense course. Learning to use the appropriate level of force is all about learning to dial down the fear and make good decisions. Once you establish your rational thought process, you can deal with the threat.

On the political level, being the armed guy or gal who chose to defuse the situation rather than shoot could do nothing but help the cause.

Kryteon said:

This is why I always carry pepper spary in addition to my firearm. I like having a non-lethal option available.

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Take that can, walk into a storage locker, close the door, and now spray a wall. How long can you stay in there?

A bus would be tighter and would be almost as bad for yourself as the target.

USMC1911 said:

No, the BG can be subdued and detained by the use of control tactics and restraint techniques.
Semper Fi
Smitty

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Yup!

Although it would be a textbook case for a rifle, as long as it was the Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle..

I would have wrote him a stern letter !