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Thread: Open Carry with a Snit!

  1. #1
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Open Carry with a Snit!

    Howdy Folks!
    After a fun filled day of breakfast with other Colorado gun owners at I-Hop, and travel to Cripple Creek for a trip down the Phantom Canyon Road, and return on the Shelf Road... I had to get a few things at Safeway.

    That's where my terrific and enjoyable day ended on a snit.

    I've shopped at that particular Safeway for more than 17 years. Everybody there knows me. The managers know me. The clerks know me. We've spent enough between the wife and I at their store to build a new wing onto their building!

    So I arrive about a quarter to midnight and do a whirlwind sweep to fetch the items I want. As I approach the register, I invite 2 other folks to jump in line ahead of me because I wanted to write a check and didn't wish to delay them. Besides, they had only a few items each.

    When my own groceries are rung up, I write out the check for a whopping $7.27. To emphasize the point... I write a check for seven dollars and twenty seven cents. Rather than search through my wallet (a tedioius process on a good day), I punch in the number for my club card. I also note that I have never seen this particular young man in the store before tonight. Handing the check I'd written to the clerk, he looks me dead in the eye and asked for my I.D. "I haven't been asked for my I.D. in this store for years!" He said "I know it's a low amount but the manager wants me to check I.D.s to accept a check." I bristled some, "I know all the managers here. They know me. The managers have never asked me for an I.D. for YEARS!!!!" The guy shrugged and said, "Sorry, but I need to see some I.D."

    I produced my I.D., but the steam built up! I've been shopping this same Safeway for 17 years. Now I'm being shaken down by a bureaucratic clerk for an I.D. on a $7.27 cent purchase. I seldom ever write a check there for under $100. Often I get cash back to the tune of 50 to 100 bucks in addition to my purchase. Now I'm writing a check for a mere $7.27, no cash back, and being chaffed by some guy who is so hot for policy, he can't see anything else.

    There I stood, wearing a hat that costs more than the cashier will make in a week of hard work. Standing there with a pistol on my hip that cost more than he'll be paid in a 2 week check. My wife (because of her condition) pays more for medication in a month that the little twerp will earn in a whole darn year! I have car payments now that are likely more per month than he'll earn over 30 days! But he's shaking me down for seven dollars and twenty seven cents? Are you kidding me????

    That clerk made a judgment about me and was going to stick with it, regardless of logic. I'm going to risk my certification as a bounty hunter, my reputation as a process server, and risk my ability to purchase guns along with risking my concealed carry permit.... just so I can rip him off of a whole seven dollars and twenty seven cents??????????????????????????????????????????? What did he think I looked like anyway? John Dillenger? Clyde Barrow? Perhaps a banker?

    He was still playing with my check as I picked up my bags and walked out without another word. They would not have been kindly words anyhow.

    And tomorrow, I plan to visit the store and have a chat with his managers.
    I believe they'll take care of this matter to my satisfaction.
    Otherwise, the folks at King Soopers still know how to treat a law abiding citizen!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  2. #2
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    Hey M-T. You should have stuck around IHOP for my little incident. See I refuse to provide ID when using my credit/debit card. These cards are signature cards. If photo ID was a requirement my picture would be on it. Anyhow they didn't like it to much when I told them that I would not let them see my drivers license. Two waitresses and a manager later I was allowed to sign my receipt and be on my way. Got me quite flustered though. I was shaking from frustration. If I ever eat at that IHOP again I"ll be sure to bring cash.
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    Sounds like the kid was just doing his job. Doesn't matter who you know, he doesn't know you. Nor does it matter what your car payment is or how much your gun costs, he was doing what his manager told him to do.
    I hope the kid doesn't get in trouble for doing his job.
    Have a nice day.*****

  4. #4
    Regular Member MatieA's Avatar
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    I don't understand people getting so upset about showing ID. I have had cards and checks stolen, and recovered only because a clerk asked for ID. Myself, not having to produce ID to show that I am the person that the card/check belongs to upsets me. It is a matter of making sure that the person that does not know you, is reasonably sure that the account belongs to you. If you are ever a victim of identity theft, you will begin to understand wanting someone to card you when you present a card/check as a form of payment.
    This is much different than showing ID to walk down the street, or to carry a sidearm, this is being used to ensure that the card/check is not stolen (as much as that is possible by looking at an ID); it is being done to protect you from theft.
    Also showing ID along with a signature card is used to verify (as much as is possible) that the signature on the card, and on your receipt is the account owners by matching it to the signature on your ID.
    Last edited by MatieA; 04-22-2012 at 08:40 AM.
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  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roverhound View Post
    Sounds like the kid was just doing his job. Doesn't matter who you know, he doesn't know you. Nor does it matter what your car payment is or how much your gun costs, he was doing what his manager told him to do.
    I hope the kid doesn't get in trouble for doing his job.
    Have a nice day.*****
    Sounds like a typical rant - we're all guilty of it occasionally. Real question is was he smiling?
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    M, how much you make or spend compared to this kid doesn't matter in this scenario. It's not a personal thing; he's doing what he believes is policy. He's doing his job, or at least believes he is. I once waited on a customer who paid with a black American Express card (BIG money!) and I promise you, my paycheck was probably equivalent to the spare change in his couch. Does that mean he was better than me?

    Having worked retail, I used to ask for I.D., not all the time (i.e., regular customers), but often enough that I did catch a few people who were using cards that didn't belong to them.

    That said, I don't think it's up to employees to "save the day" by I.D.ing everyone who comes through their line, but I also don't see it as a violation. You have the ability to refuse.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    .... I also note that I have never seen this particular young man in the store before tonight. ....
    For this you wasted my precious time?

    Now, I lurvs me a good rant, and have even been known to throw one or two myself. But let's face it, besides here on OCDO you are not a celebrity whose face is plastered on the media by a publicist to ensure that you are known on sight by all. (And if you do get a publicist, do not believe them when they tell you wearing scanty clothes makes you more memorable - they do not mean thatword in a good way.)

    Guessing that you move your lips when you read (again) I have probably wasted as much of your time as you wasted of mine. We're even.

    stay safe.
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  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    --snip--

    Having worked retail, I used to ask for I.D., not all the time (i.e., regular customers), but often enough that I did catch a few people who were using cards that didn't belong to them.
    Using a card that does not belong to you is not illegal or a violation of TOS.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I did not say that is was. We were told not to accept such cards, however, to protect our own butts. That was not a corporate thing that I'm aware of, but a judgement call by our store managers.

    It does concern me though, because at the time it (to me) indicated identity theft. I'm keeping an open mind and learning more now.

  10. #10
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roverhound View Post
    Sounds like the kid was just doing his job. Doesn't matter who you know, he doesn't know you. Nor does it matter what your car payment is or how much your gun costs, he was doing what his manager told him to do.
    I hope the kid doesn't get in trouble for doing his job.
    Have a nice day.*****
    Howdy Again!
    Just to state again, I've shopped there for 17 years. Everybody there knows me, except evidently this particular individual.
    His asking for my I.D. was tantamont to saying I am suspected of criminal activity in trying to pass a bad check for $7.27 cents.
    That's the point.

    If people resent showing a cop their I.D. without reasonable articulatable suspicion, why accept that behavior from a civilian flunky?
    What did he judge me on? Certainly couldn't be my clothing, my vehicle, or any other external factor.

    What I should have done, to be perfectly honest and equal, was to demand his I.D. as am employee. How do I know he is a legitimate employee? He wasn't even wearing a Safeway shirt, for crying out loud. How the heck is he? Maybe I should also have demanded to see his birth certificate. After all, I have no evidence that he's even am American, let alone an employee. I could go on a whole bunch further, but the point is....
    I resent, and will continue to resent... being required to produce my I.D. to prove I ain't a criminal when stopping to make a purchase at a location where I've shopped for many years and folks know me there. A place, BTW, where I've spent tons of money over the years, along with my wife doing likewise.

    But if they do not need any more business from me, that's fine too because I don't get treated that way at King Soopers.
    Yeah, they can hire kids and have them perform "Your papers please!" type checks on my identity,
    And I can take my business elsewhere.
    I will talk with management with an eye toward educating the kid as to who I am.
    I don't intend to get him in trouble, and ask where you claim I said anything of that ilk?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  11. #11
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatieA View Post
    If you are ever a victim of identity theft, you will begin to understand wanting someone to card you when you present a card/check as a form of payment.
    Also showing ID along with a signature card is used to verify (as much as is possible) that the signature on the card, and on your receipt is the account owners by matching it to the signature on your ID.
    Howdy!
    I'd already punched in my "Club Member" I.D. into their little computer gizmo at the check stand.
    That got me a discount on some items.
    I figure that's all the check they needed to verify my identity.
    Asking for my I.D. was nothing short of double-dipping.

    "Your papers please....."

    I ain't gonna Zeig Heil anybody, and who the heck is he? What about his identity. I do not even know that he's a citizen of this country, and he's demanding proof of my identity?

    And another thing... did you know that a huge number of identity theft cases and credit card fraud occur because a clerk.... not unlike this one... and not saying he would or did do anything of that ilk... either record your numbers to use for I.D. fraud, or pass that information on to their confederates. So if you're worried about I.D. theft, the last thing you ought to do is give out your info to just anybody working as a part time clerk the sort of information you should be protecting. Perhaps that's why it happened to you? Possible? I don't know your specifics. But seems you're pretty free with giving out the sort of info that leads to your identity being stolen!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    I will talk with management with an eye toward educating the kid as to who I am.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Why would that be necessary? He's already seen your I.D., right?

  13. #13
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Having worked retail, I used to ask for I.D., not all the time (i.e., regular customers),
    Hello?????????????????????????????
    Did you even read my original post?

    I've shopped there for over 17 years.
    Him, I've never seen before.

    Better than him?
    I don't even know that he's a U.S. citizen.
    And I have much more room for reasonable and articulatable suspicion about his identity and legal status than he did to card me!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  14. #14
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    For this you wasted my precious time?
    Howdy Skidmark!
    I usually regard your posts as reasonable.
    But this one is a departure from your usual level headed post.

    For example... Nobody dragged you over here to read this thread.
    Nobody twisted your arm to compell participation on this board.
    Don't blame me for what you do with your time.
    Take responsibility for your own time, just as I do for mine.

    I ain't no celebrity on OCDO. Where did I say anything of that ilk? Please cite the reference.
    What I did say was that I've shopped the same store for 17 years. They know me there.
    And they surely know our money there, because they've received a mountain of it over those 17 years.
    That was the point!
    My umbrage isn't whether OCDO knows me... that wasn't the topic.
    Unless you are trying to hijack the thread, please refrain from irrelevance.

    If the store wants my customer loyalty, then they need to show me some loyalty in return.
    That's the point.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Hello?????????????????????????????
    Did you even read my original post?

    I've shopped there for over 17 years.
    Him, I've never seen before.

    Better than him?
    I don't even know that he's a U.S. citizen.
    And I have much more room for reasonable and articulatable suspicion about his identity and legal status than he did to card me!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Hello.

    I did read it. My issue is, you've never seen him before, he's never seen you before, and you take it as a personal offense that he doesn't know you from Grandpa Moses. It comes off as arrogant.

    Rant if you must, but don't get upset when people critique you when you make it a public rant.

    Blessings,
    Pistol Packing Momma

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    Seeing as how the guy was new there, he not only didn't know you but was still probably learning his job. I would cut him a little slack.

    Now, I've had experiences where my whole family has gone shopping at the same store for years and I've open carried for years, and then some manager comes up to me and tells me there are no guns allowed in the store and I'm no longer welcome. Now that is something that ticks me off.

    But as a clerk myself, who probably makes less money than your hat is worth after working for a week or two, I can see both sides here. All the new guys where I work are told the rules. Sometimes they can bend the rules, but the new guys don't know where it is okay to bend the rules and aren't going to risk their hat money to do so. If they're told to check ID for all checks, they'd be inclined to do so whether you looked rich or poor, or even famous. [Maybe they're afraid of being seen breaking the rule on camera.] If there is a rule that your club card number is good enough as ID, he may not have all the rules down since he is new.


    As for trusting rich people, there are rich people out there who nonetheless are compulsive liars and kleptomaniacs. I've had people covered in gold try to rip me off for a $10 ticket or to get an extra $2 in change that I already gave them.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 04-22-2012 at 01:01 PM.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Hello.

    I did read it. My issue is, you've never seen him before, he's never seen you before, and you take it as a personal offense that he doesn't know you from Grandpa Moses. It comes off as arrogant.

    Rant if you must, but don't get upset when people critique you when you make it a public rant.

    Blessings,
    Pistol Packing Momma
    I am going to have to agree here.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    For checks, I'd think that if the customer # you'd punched in showed up on their screen with the same info as was on your check, that'd be good enough. (Esp. for such a small amount.) But maybe the manager(s) can make a picture list for the new guy, to show who the long-time & trustworthy customers are.

    For credit cards, both Visa & Mastercard say in their rules for businesses that they are NOT allowed to make showing ID a condition of acceptance of the card for a purchase. Your signature which matches the signature on the card is your ID. That's why it has to be signed, & why putting "see ID" on the card won't work.
    (By the rules of MC & V, it has to be signed & the merchant can't ask for ID.)

    If they have doubts about the validity of the purchase, they call a hotline & answer a bunch of yes or no questions so the customer isn't supposed to be aware of what's happening.

    But if you run into that you can complain to the card company & they'll straighten out the merchant.
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    I guess what I should have said is who the hell pays by check any more.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    SNIP...After a fun filled day of breakfast with...(the OP)
    Let me make sure I understand this. You're bent out of shape because a new employee applied policy where you haven't had that policy applied to you in years?

    Completely aside from the sheer arrogance of thinking a private entity owes it to you to accept your paper promise to pay without at least being able to verify you are in fact the account-holder...and completely aside from the fact that the ID request for checks dates to what? the 1970's. Those two points completely aside, you expect a new clerk who does not know you to credit your 17 years patronage?

    Give me a **cking break!!

    Listen, I knew you were capable of weaseling from your previous evasive, irrelevant, and non-sequitur arguments, but this one takes the cake. Who are you to be offended when a new clerk does not know you? Oooooo. "I am the great M-Taliesin! How dare you not know me!"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatieA View Post
    I don't understand people getting so upset about showing ID. I have had cards and checks stolen, and recovered only because a clerk asked for ID. Myself, not having to produce ID to show that I am the person that the card/check belongs to upsets me. It is a matter of making sure that the person that does not know you, is reasonably sure that the account belongs to you. If you are ever a victim of identity theft, you will begin to understand wanting someone to card you when you present a card/check as a form of payment.
    This is much different than showing ID to walk down the street, or to carry a sidearm, this is being used to ensure that the card/check is not stolen (as much as that is possible by looking at an ID); it is being done to protect you from theft.
    Also showing ID along with a signature card is used to verify (as much as is possible) that the signature on the card, and on your receipt is the account owners by matching it to the signature on your ID.
    This is a bit of tangent to the thread topic, but bear with me.

    There is no such thing as identity theft. Its a red-herring dreamed up by the financial services industry.

    Your identity is character traits or behaviors of you. Or, it is you yourself as distinct from the other (6B?) people on this planet. These are all things that cannot be stolen. Your identity cannot possibly be stolen.

    What can (and does) happen is someone else can pretend to be you. In which case some financial services company or retailer is the victim of fraud by the person pretending to be you. Read that again. The bank or department store is the victim of fraud. Not you.

    By inventing "identity theft", the financial services industry and retailers have shifted the blame for the fraud to you. The version of fraud where someone pretends to be someone else has been around for centuries. Its only been in the last what? 10-15 years? that we have had this new thing called identity theft. Under this new, so-called identity theft, the financial services industry, particularly the credit industry, reduces its victimhood for fraud and shifts the burden to the person whose name was used for the fraud. Now, the person whose name was used has tons of headaches proving a negative, meaning proving he didn't assume these obligations himself.

    Of course, all this comes about because the financial services and retail industries want more money faster. It wants to pump out more credit cards and credit card accounts and, etc., etc., etc. So, they create the opportunities for themselves to be defrauded. They make it easier for themselves to be defrauded. But, then they hold responsible the guy whose name is used.

    Then, to add insult to injury, some financial services companies (banks) offer--for a fee of course--identity protection services like monitoring your transactions and whether anybody is applying for credit using your name. Basically they are charging you to prevent themselves being defrauded by someone else!!

    So, rather than taking effective steps to prevent themselves being defrauded, like making damn sure they are dealing with the person they think they are, they shift the responsibility to the guy whose name the fraudster chose.

    Think about it. Do you really owe it to financial services companies and retailers to receive from them the shift in responsibility just so they can pump out more credit card applications? Just so the auto makers credit divisions can help sell more cars? Just so the big department stores can sell a bit more? Just so the mortgage companies and banks who destroyed the economy recently can pump through more home loans faster? Of course not!
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-22-2012 at 06:05 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    To add insult to injury, my local Honda dealer is now trying to tell me that my 2 year old car is in high demand by someone and they want to 'put me in a new 2012 Honda SUV'. They've called me about 8 times, 6 of those times are different people, and the last time was the (alleged) manager who didn't know much about the deal so was querying me for information about what they wanted to 'do for me'. I said 'they apparently want to put me in a new Honda 2012 SUV, can't you ask them why?'. He didn't call back but the original guy called me and said he had taken ill and thus his friends were trying to help him out by calling me.

    They claim that they're willing to pay off my current debt (about $3-4K remaining) and give me a bunch of money if I'll bring it in to be appraised because it has low mileage. This sounds a bit suspicious to me, since they wouldn't be making more than $1-2K for the new car. I will probably have to pay a pretty large amount of sales tax. I'm thinking they 'cheapened' up on the new Hondas, maybe plastic instead of steel parts and figure they can chop my 2010 car and make their money that way. Though this sounds like I'm joking, I assure you all details are on the level.

    Has anyone experienced anything like this or has someone stolen the identity of the Honda salesmen and are they having a bit of sport with me?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    To add insult to injury, my local Honda dealer is now trying to tell me that my 2 year old car is in high demand by someone and they want to 'put me in a new 2012 Honda SUV'. They've called me about 8 times, 6 of those times are different people, and the last time was the (alleged) manager who didn't know much about the deal so was querying me for information about what they wanted to 'do for me'. I said 'they apparently want to put me in a new Honda 2012 SUV, can't you ask them why?'. He didn't call back but the original guy called me and said he had taken ill and thus his friends were trying to help him out by calling me.

    They claim that they're willing to pay off my current debt (about $3-4K remaining) and give me a bunch of money if I'll bring it in to be appraised because it has low mileage. This sounds a bit suspicious to me, since they wouldn't be making more than $1-2K for the new car. I will probably have to pay a pretty large amount of sales tax. I'm thinking they 'cheapened' up on the new Hondas, maybe plastic instead of steel parts and figure they can chop my 2010 car and make their money that way. Though this sounds like I'm joking, I assure you all details are on the level.

    Has anyone experienced anything like this or has someone stolen the identity of the Honda salesmen and are they having a bit of sport with me?
    Give them all of you personal financial information and see how it works out.
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    Thumbs down Blessings to you. I think you're gonna need them.

    I thought your post was kind of interesting 'till I got to this line:

    "There I stood, wearing a hat that costs more than the cashier will make in a week of hard work."

    Pretty much told me everything I need to know about you.

    And I won't even get into the "All hat, no cattle" thing.

    Blessings
    Last edited by ARADCOM; 04-22-2012 at 08:46 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Jun 2009
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    Castle Rock, Colorado, USA
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    228
    Quote Originally Posted by ARADCOM View Post
    I thought your post was kind of interesting 'till I got to this line:

    "There I stood, wearing a hat that costs more than the cashier will make in a week of hard work."

    Pretty much told me everything I need to know about you.

    And I won't even get into the "All hat, no cattle" thing.

    Blessings
    Struck me the same way, I don't care if you walk in wearing a pair of custom Lucchese Elephant Belly boots.

    I'm the employee who was must follow policy, whether or not my fellow employees choose not to do so is not a concern of mine.

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