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Thread: Show of support for US veteran needed in Waverly on 4-27

  1. #1
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Show of support for US veteran needed in Waverly on 4-27

    In January of 2011, a US Army veteran was OC'ing and was approached by a LEO. He was doing nothing wrong and initially declined to provide identification. He was arrested for Obstruction of Official Business and Disorderly Conduct. Waverly law 525.21 is the same as ORC 2923.49 regarding disclosing personal info.

    The thread is at OFCC: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=49102

    A description of what happened is on page 9 of that thread. The victims screen name is Harleys&Guns

    Long story short: The LEO admitted at pre-trial there was NO RAS, but the prosecutor and judge refused to dismiss. Jury trial FINALLY scheduled for 8:30am on Friday, 4/27/12. The victim and his attorney would like to have a show of force, I mean, support. I'll be stopping at the Tim Horton's in Waverly at 7:30am before heading over to get a seat at the courthouse.

    If anyone can spare some time on Friday to drop by, please do. This IS a pro-OC issue.

    The website for the Pike County Court is: http://pikecountycourt.org


    FYI, this is a town that has been associated with corruption before: http://www.policeone.com/legal/artic...-000-covers-it


    Again, sorry for the short notice. Hope to see you there!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  2. #2
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    For those who cannot, or chose not to access the link provided, here is a summary, provided by the wife of the charged (with disorderly conduct and obstruction of official business) man:

    "“I am Harleys&Guns wife Cathy and I would like to clear a few things up if I may. My husband was charged with Obstruction of Official Business because he was Open Carrying in WalMart when a police officer approached him and I and immediately demanded to see his CHL. My husband told him that OC did not require a CHL. He then demanded to see a state issued ID from him, and my husband immediately verbally identified himself to the cop. As a matter of fact, the cop demanded to see a state issued picture ID 3 or 4 times and each time Bill verbally identified himself and finally he produced a drivers license at about 33 seconds into the encounter according to the video tape of the encounter. You can clearly see him handing the drivers license over to the cop at approximately 33 seconds. He then informed us that WalMart was posted no guns and my husband corected him and even the store security people told the cop that he was wrong.

    Then my husband was asked to hand his gun to the cop and he instead turned and raised his right hand out of the way to allow the cop to remove his gun as my husband told him that unneccessary handling of a loaded firearm was unsafe. The cop took the gun out and attempted to clear it (Model 1911 Colt Defender) and when he didnt know how to clear it he then told my husband to clear it and hand it back to him. My husband refused, as a litle while earlier, the cop told Bill that he was fully trained in firearm handling when Bill asked if he had ever handled a 1911 before. Bill then said that since you are a fully trained expert, clear the gun yourself cause In not touching it. Bill was then placed under arrest for disorderly conduct. At the police station, the cop told me that he was arrested for obstruction for taking too long to produce a photo ID when demanded to by the cop, and was arrested for disorderly for having the audacity to look the cop in the eye when talking to him (cop said that was a threatening maneuver on my husbands part, and that Bill was loud in the store causing a scene, but my husband has some hearing loss in the left ear, and he normally tallks louder and moves his hands when he talks and talking louder is pretty normal for people with hearing loss)

    At the suppression hearing, the cop said under oath that me or my husband was doing nothing wrong and there was no reasonable articulate suspicion that we were either going to commit a crime, had committed one, or were in the process of committing one. Our position is that the Terry stop was non consensual as the cop first approached us and demanded to see Bills CHL. The judge never even ruled if the stop was legal or not, she just stated that the cop was allowed to demand to see a state issued ID to see who he was dealing with and that if an ID made him feel better, then that was all she was concerned with.

    So now, we wait for a court date and fight it out in court.

    A few of you on here know Bill and Im sure that noone here would ever think he would do anything illegal. He was complying with the cops order to "ID yourself to me" by verbally Id ing himself, but that was not near good enough for the cop, although the Ohio Supreme Court says differently, due to the RAS not being met.

    There is more that will come out at the trail, but I dont wanna say too much more than I have already, but I definitely felt the need to try to clear up a few things and to let you guys know that Bill is NOT someone who goes around looking for trouble or breaks laws(OK maybe he speeds a little but thats about it) Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers that this ends in a good way for Bill and that he gets justice in a town thats known for doing things their own way."

    This incident occured in December, 2010 and is just now getting to trial.
    Last edited by BB62; 04-22-2012 at 11:02 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Just to make things crystal clear, in Ohio, unless you're engaged in a VERY narrow range of activities such as driving or carrying CONCEALED with an Ohio CHL or recognized equivalent, you don't even have to HAVE ID, of ANY kind.

    This is just another example of why distrust of the police runs so high.

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    hope you have a few PRO 2A jurors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yiteurp View Post
    hope you have a few PRO 2A jurors.
    His name is Bill. Bill's not here.

    This could of happened to any one of us. I know how I'd feel if I got charged with this bogus BS. I would appreciate the whole State supporting me. Its a 3 hour 36 minute drive for me, and I'm going to try to make breakfast @ Tim Hortons.

    Some of the guys are wearing empty hip holsters to support Bill, and Open Carry.

    If you don't do anything else for the furtherment of Open Carry, support someone who does.

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    Wait a minute! Just so I understand. The cops admitted they had no RAS. And, yet the judge refused to toss the charge? Despite the fact that:


    • Brown v Texas makes it clear RAS is needed for an identity demand
    • Hiibel v 6th Judicial District Court reaffirmed the RAS requirement
    • In Florida v JL SCOTUS expressly declined to adopt an exception for guns to its Terry doctrine? (Terry v Ohio)


    Oh, really?

    The defendant doesn't just need support. I think he might need a new lawyer. This stuff should be a slam dunk. Hopefully his attorney is preserving his standing to appeal on these points.


    The named court cases are linked here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Resources-Here
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-22-2012 at 08:25 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Wait a minute! Just so I understand. The cops admitted they had no RAS. And, yet the judge refused to toss the charge? ...
    You understand correctly. That's why this is an issue.

    There's an awful lot of lip service being paid in the forums about "They can't do that!" Well, guess what? They did! Now what?

    How can it be a slam dunk if the judge and/or prosecutor is/are corrupt, ignorant or inept?

    His lawyer knows what he's doing, but he's had to fight their 'system' the whole way.

    I will at least be there to see the people that need to be voted out. I don't live in Waverly, but I won't mind driving down to do some campaigning for 'the other guy'.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    You understand correctly. That's why this is an issue.

    There's an awful lot of lip service being paid in the forums about "They can't do that!" Well, guess what? They did! Now what?

    How can it be a slam dunk if the judge and/or prosecutor is/are corrupt, ignorant or inept?

    His lawyer knows what he's doing, but he's had to fight their 'system' the whole way.

    I will at least be there to see the people that need to be voted out. I don't live in Waverly, but I won't mind driving down to do some campaigning for 'the other guy'.
    I see. Thanks.

    Well, I guess some judges need to be spanked by an appellate court before they develop the ability to read law. I imagine a law book to the head would be needed to get them to actually look out for rights.

    I'd love to be there. I might be tempted to read aloud to the judge this passage from Hiibel: "The Court held that the statute was void because it provided no standard for determining what a suspect must do to comply with it, resulting in “‘virtually unrestrained power to arrest and charge persons with a violation." Hiibel quoting Kolender quoting Lewis v New Orleans.

    Compare that quote to the judge's suppression hearing comment about it being enough for her that an ID made the cop more comfortable. If your reports are accurate, this judge is an activity enemy of rights.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-22-2012 at 09:19 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. (Because that is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--for each other and everybody else--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.)

    Equality and consent of the governed: We're all equal. How can another legitimately govern me without my express consent?

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    I read somewhere that the Judge, the Prosecutor, and the Chief are all family. I can't prove it, but it makes sense. The Webster description of a Kangaroo Court.
    Last edited by JSlack7851; 05-10-2012 at 10:15 AM.

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Where is the video?...
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Interesting developments today. Briefly put, a crowd of twenty plus supporters of Harleys&Guns showed up for the trial today. However out of fifty people called for potential jury duty in this case, only 13 showed up. As you might expect a few were disqualified, so, that didn't leave enough to continue the procedings.

    Another oddity: The prosecutor for this case does the same job in the next county over, so she didn't show up, sending her husband in her stead. He is presumably licensed to practice law but it's possible he's never been sworn in as an officer of this particular court.

    I know that Pike County is certainly rural compared to my part of Ohio but really, not enough people to fill a jury box? A prosecutor that can't make it to the trial? These things don't happen around most of the rest of state to the best of my knowledge.

    Trial postponed (this time) until June 8th. Who knows, that may interfere with the judge's duties presiding over a hog calling contest or something, but he won't realize it until the last second.

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    I'm going to give an honest effort to be there. It's almost a 4 hour drive from me, but I'd really like to make it. I see events are organized on occasion and I would like to start attending what I can - if I happen to make it...I'll be the incredibly young looking 23 year old! ;]

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    Reading that summary of what happened, it almost seemed like the cop was trying his hardest to get him to touch that gun so he could try to get a little more action on him.

    A cop that doesn't know how to clear the gun himself is absolutely ridiculous at best, and (more than likely) sketchy at worst.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    I'm going to give an honest effort to be there. It's almost a 4 hour drive from me, but I'd really like to make it. I see events are organized on occasion and I would like to start attending what I can - if I happen to make it...I'll be the incredibly young looking 23 year old! ;]
    There are several members of OFCC (ohioccw.org) that will be going. If you are a member there, you might find someone to carpool with, if you can not find someone here at OCDO.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  15. #15
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Avenelle
    Reading that summary of what happened, it almost seemed like the cop was trying his hardest to get him to touch that gun so he could try to get a little more action on him.

    A cop that doesn't know how to clear the gun himself is absolutely ridiculous at best, and (more than likely) sketchy at worst.
    I have been told by current and former LEO's that not all cops are "gun guys".

    The officer involved looks like he might be younger than Glock, so he may have little to no experience with 1911's. I don't hold that against him (much).

    It's his decision to arrest on 'disorderly' and 'obstruction' that I hold against him and the whole system in Waverly.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    I have been told by current and former LEO's that not all cops are "gun guys".

    The officer involved looks like he might be younger than Glock, so he may have little to no experience with 1911's. I don't hold that against him (much).

    It's his decision to arrest on 'disorderly' and 'obstruction' that I hold against him and the whole system in Waverly.
    One of the guys in my shop at my base is a cop civilian side, and he isn't into guns at all. It's actually kind of scary being on the shooting range with him because he doesn't really know how to handle them like he should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    There are several members of OFCC (ohioccw.org) that will be going...
    Or, OFCC forum members who are not members of OFCC.

  18. #18
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Or, OFCC forum members who are not members of OFCC.
    Thanks for correcting my typing!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Don't forget Waverly June 8, 2012 8:30 am Be there.......please......

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Don't forget Waverly June 8, 2012 8:30 am Be there.......please......
    I couldn't get the day off, so unfortunately I won't be able to make it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Everybody has their own value system.

    I value my time. Everyone does. I value justice, liberty, etcetera.

    What I cannot put a value on is the moral support I can provide to a like-minded individual who is facing undeserved punishment by a corrupt system.

    There are people coming in from other states to support this man and stand against the injustice displayed in the town of Waverly. I cannot rationalize NOT taking time off to attend. The circumstances ARE making me feel a little ill.

    Friday looks like a sick day!

    I'll see everyone there on Friday morning! I MAY even buy the donut holes!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    I MAY even buy the donut holes!
    You tempt me, sir, with your suggestion of confectioneries!

    Seriously though, I'm going to try to be there. Where is everyone meeting beforehand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JmE View Post
    You tempt me, sir, with your suggestion of confectioneries!

    Seriously though, I'm going to try to be there. Where is everyone meeting beforehand?
    Tim Hortons in front of the court house/Krogers

    Tim Hortons
    510 E Emmitt
    Waverly OH 45690

    At 7 am
    Last edited by color of law; 06-07-2012 at 09:09 PM.

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    Thanks!

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    According to folks form OFCC who were there today, after a day long trial the case was plead out to a misdemeanor disorderly conduct, $80 fine. I would invite those who took time out of their lives to travel to Waverly give a full report.

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