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Thread: The curious, and the mindless

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    The curious, and the mindless

    Had an interesting contrast of encounters this weekend. Yesterday, I was at the Albertsons in Oak Harbor, and a lady in a scooter going past suddenly backs up & says "Excuse me, is that a gun? Why do you have one?" So I talked to her for a minute or two, gave her my "'cuz it's easier than carrying a cop (tried that for a while, but he was too heavy), for the same reason I always wear a seat belt, that no matter how much I try & keep out of trouble I cannot control the behavior of others" spiel. All in all a pleasant little chat, gave her a quick low down on open carry, etc, tho I doubt she went right out & bought a gun.

    And then I just bumped into Adam Klein's mini-me here at the local Ace hardware. As I'm walking in I hear someone in the parking lot, "OMG does that guy have a gun??" Thought it was a woman at first. I head over to the bolt aisle & pick out what I need, and the person meanders around behind me for a better look, while keeping his distance, 'loud-mutters' "idiot," storms off. Still on 'ignore it till it becomes a threat mode' at this point. He asks the clerk for some help, picks out a few things in the same aisle, going out of his way to keep his distance as I go back & forth getting what I need. So finally he says "is that a real gun??" Now what would be the point of carrying a fake gun? "You have a permit for that??" Don't need a permit to open carry in WA, perfectly legal. "Well we'll have to change that!" Storms off again.

    I just shake my head & keep minding my own business. Finally he tracks me down again a few minutes later in a different aisle, "So I have to ask you, do you feel threatened or something??" Now I try to lay down my "seatbelt" spiel, but he immediately cuts me off "hey that's not what I asked, do you feel threatened here at Ace?" Tried a few more times to have a rational discussion, every time he cuts me off or talks over me. Think he had a few too many lattes this morning or something. Finally he storms off again. As I'm leaving I see him standing in the parking lot eyeing the truck with the big "OBAMA SUCKS" sticker. Sure he had something to say about that too.

    Oy.

    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    I see stupid people, they're everywhere and they don't even know they are stupid.

    I had someone make a comment like that while I was in Lowes in Monroe.

    I was getting supplies for a project and he saw I OC 2, it was warm out so I didn't wear a jacket, he comments that I must think that this is a dangerous store or something to that effect.

    At Big 5 in Monroe while waiting in line the cashier made a remark implying that I might shoot him or someone else in the store. Only had one on that day I think it was my hip holster that day.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    My standard response it to say "I'm an armed citizen here for the protection of the innocent." I have never been argued with after that.

    Also, I state "I meet all the State of Washington's licensing requirements to carry in this manner."
    Last edited by Levi; 04-22-2012 at 03:19 PM.
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    At Big 5 in Monroe while waiting in line the cashier made a remark implying that I might shoot him or someone else in the store.
    I would have had a little chat with the manager if a cashier made a comment like that to me. Their job is not to vocalize their disapproval of customers' actions or accessories.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayd1981 View Post
    I would have had a little chat with the manager if a cashier made a comment like that to me. Their job is not to vocalize their disapproval of customers' actions or accessories.
    Disapproval of actions would be perfectly acceptable. It is their property.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Disapproval of actions would be perfectly acceptable. It is their property.
    I would disagree with you there. If the company has no problem with someone OCing then the cashier should not be making remarks, especially insinuating that he was going to shoot up the place. To me that is unnessessarily trying to cause a panic.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Disapproval of actions would be perfectly acceptable. It is their property.
    So you would accept such from your underlings at the gun shop? I doubt that.

    It may be their RIGHT, but it is not their PLACE. Especially from an underling.


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    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    So you would accept such from your underlings at the gun shop? I doubt that.

    It may be their RIGHT, but it is not their PLACE. Especially from an underling.


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    Behavior, yes I would. I empower my employees to make decisions. And unacceptable behavior is defined under me. They are not underlings they are people they are people whom I have entrusted.

    Do you think the customer is always right?
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Behavior, yes I would. I empower my employees to make decisions. And unacceptable behavior is defined under me. They are not underlings they are people they are people whom I have entrusted.

    Do you think the customer is always right?
    Uh huh. So if a person came in in traditional Arab garb and one of your employees made a remark that he was there to blow up the place, you'd be ok with that right? When the customer is doing nothing illegal or even remotely threatening, yeah he's generally right. Insinuating that a customer is going to shoot up the place because they have a gun, blow up the place because they're Muslim, or rob the place because they're black is absolutely unacceptable behavior from any employee, and when it comes from an UNDERLING (you can use whatever cutesy euphemism you want, underlings are underlings, accept it and move on), it is the responsibility of the manager or other overling to correct such MISTAKE.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Uh huh. So if a person came in in traditional Arab garb and one of your employees made a remark that he was there to blow up the place, you'd be ok with that right? When the customer is doing nothing illegal or even remotely threatening, yeah he's generally right. Insinuating that a customer is going to shoot up the place because they have a gun, blow up the place because they're Muslim, or rob the place because they're black is absolutely unacceptable behavior from any employee, and when it comes from an UNDERLING (you can use whatever cutesy euphemism you want, underlings are underlings, accept it and move on), it is the responsibility of the manager or other overling to correct such MISTAKE.
    I think I said something to the cashier about it. I used to shop and OC in there fairly often. What caused me to remember this incident at all was the fact that after they got my stuff rang up, I think I might have gotten my hunting and fishing licenses there that day, I barely had time to get into my car and start leaving before a cop showed up and gave me the stink eye as I was leaving.

    I, normally, am calm and point out that comments like that are uncalled for and rude. I would rather they think about it and fix it. Now if I had heard it more than twice like it might start to be a pattern then I would have mentioned something to the manager there. Him and I would visit with each other every time I stopped in.

    Hell the guys in Radio Shack (Monroe) were down right friendly to me when I OC in there. But this thread is not about friendly people when we OC it is about the stupid people we encounter.


    Having an OC on a drop leg holster is nice. I have people who would normally want to hassle me about something see it and then leave me alone. The most common questions are:
    Is it real?
    Do you have a license to do that?
    One in awhile I will get a
    How can I do that?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Uh huh. So if a person came in in traditional Arab garb and one of your employees made a remark that he was there to blow up the place, you'd be ok with that right? When the customer is doing nothing illegal or even remotely threatening, yeah he's generally right. Insinuating that a customer is going to shoot up the place because they have a gun, blow up the place because they're Muslim, or rob the place because they're black is absolutely unacceptable behavior from any employee, and when it comes from an UNDERLING (you can use whatever cutesy euphemism you want, underlings are underlings, accept it and move on), it is the responsibility of the manager or other overling to correct such MISTAKE.
    Re read what I posted. I said behavior, of the customer. I said actions, of the customer. Not what they are wearing.

    (If an employee made a comment that is out of line they will be handled accordingly.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    SNIP (If an employee made a comment that is out of line they will be handled accordingly.)
    The handling will be out of line, too?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Had an interesting contrast of encounters this weekend. Yesterday, I was at the Albertsons in Oak Harbor, and a lady in a scooter going past suddenly backs up & says "Excuse me, is that a gun? Why do you have one?" So I talked to her for a minute or two, gave her my "'cuz it's easier than carrying a cop (tried that for a while, but he was too heavy), for the same reason I always wear a seat belt, that no matter how much I try & keep out of trouble I cannot control the behavior of others" spiel. All in all a pleasant little chat, gave her a quick low down on open carry, etc, tho I doubt she went right out & bought a gun.

    And then I just bumped into Adam Klein's mini-me here at the local Ace hardware. As I'm walking in I hear someone in the parking lot, "OMG does that guy have a gun??" Thought it was a woman at first. I head over to the bolt aisle & pick out what I need, and the person meanders around behind me for a better look, while keeping his distance, 'loud-mutters' "idiot," storms off. Still on 'ignore it till it becomes a threat mode' at this point. He asks the clerk for some help, picks out a few things in the same aisle, going out of his way to keep his distance as I go back & forth getting what I need. So finally he says "is that a real gun??" Now what would be the point of carrying a fake gun? "You have a permit for that??" Don't need a permit to open carry in WA, perfectly legal. "Well we'll have to change that!" Storms off again.

    I just shake my head & keep minding my own business. Finally he tracks me down again a few minutes later in a different aisle, "So I have to ask you, do you feel threatened or something??" Now I try to lay down my "seatbelt" spiel, but he immediately cuts me off "hey that's not what I asked, do you feel threatened here at Ace?" Tried a few more times to have a rational discussion, every time he cuts me off or talks over me. Think he had a few too many lattes this morning or something. Finally he storms off again. As I'm leaving I see him standing in the parking lot eyeing the truck with the big "OBAMA SUCKS" sticker. Sure he had something to say about that too.

    Oy.
    After he continued following you around a while, I think I would have turned and asked him "Are you Stalking Me!" Perhaps loud enough to bring some attention from the store management.

    This is what happens when WA State uses the "streets" as their mental treatment facilities. There was a time that people like this were given nice safe places to live under medical supervision.
    Last edited by amlevin; 04-23-2012 at 09:17 AM.
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    What, no video?

    Oh, on the 'I'm here for the protection of the innocent' - well meaning but, no, you're not. That's the job of the LEO. You are licensed/armed/OC-ing for the protection of yourself in the gravest extreme or your loved ones' self-defense if they are in a life threatening encounter with an armed perp. Do not feel the need to hap-hazardly step in and protect someone whom you don't know, who could be an undercover LEO's target, who could be in a DV situation. You'll get charged, or worse, shot.

    IMO the best defense to pointed questions is videoing, then calling it in as stalking. Don't leave the store, where you are protected.

    Also, most needs for firearms, I'd guess is not in the actual store but in the store parking lot. Doubt that would have shut him up though. After the second questioning, I'd be on the phone to 911 with a stalking complaint. Again get audio or video first to support your claim. You MUST be so prepared if you are going to OC.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    What, no video?

    Oh, on the 'I'm here for the protection of the innocent' - well meaning but, no, you're not. That's the job of the LEO. You are licensed/armed/OC-ing for the protection of yourself in the gravest extreme or your loved ones' self-defense if they are in a life threatening encounter with an armed perp. Do not feel the need to hap-hazardly step in and protect someone whom you don't know, who could be an undercover LEO's target, who could be in a DV situation. You'll get charged, or worse, shot.

    IMO the best defense to pointed questions is videoing, then calling it in as stalking. Don't leave the store, where you are protected.

    Also, most needs for firearms, I'd guess is not in the actual store but in the store parking lot. Doubt that would have shut him up though. After the second questioning, I'd be on the phone to 911 with a stalking complaint. Again get audio or video first to support your claim. You MUST be so prepared if you are going to OC.
    WA is a two-party consent state for recording. Can't video someone without their consent. So no, I don't wander around recording everything. I'll save doing so for an actual problem, not some mildly annoying/amusing idiot who's taken personal offense from my sidearm, AND who, in the end, was not doing anything unlawful, as the conversation(s) were consensual. Well, at least *I* was really making an effort to have a conversation...
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    WA is a two-party consent state for recording. Can't video someone without their consent. So no, I don't wander around recording everything. I'll save doing so for an actual problem, not some mildly annoying/amusing idiot who's taken personal offense from my sidearm, AND who, in the end, was not doing anything unlawful, as the conversation(s) were consensual. Well, at least *I* was really making an effort to have a conversation...
    It's only two party consent if in private. If you're in public you can record whatever you want. If you go into a store you can bet you're being recorded.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    It's only two party consent if in private. If you're in public you can record whatever you want. If you go into a store you can bet you're being recorded.
    Notice must be given. Either written (a sign) or verbal. If you are free to leave and you choose not to then consent is complicit.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    It's only two party consent if in private. If you're in public you can record whatever you want. If you go into a store you can bet you're being recorded.

    Video, yes, audio, not likely. Doubt if this Ace even has cameras. But either way, I don't feel it necessary to record every single interaction with every person I encounter.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Video, yes, audio, not likely. Doubt if this Ace even has cameras. But either way, I don't feel it necessary to record every single interaction with every person I encounter.
    I had to show a lawyer the case that ruled on this.

    If there is no reasonable expectation of privacy then you don't need permission to audio/video record.
    The case was about someone recording a cop using a hidden recorder. The cops charged the man and the court ruled the man was not breaking any law and that we can record in public without consent.

    Don't worry even lawyers don't always know the law.

    The thing about grocery stores is that they can put a limit on recording because it's a private business. They can record you and you imply consent by entering the store. Thankfully the law requires that their recording activity be posted at the entrances.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    What, no video?

    Oh, on the 'I'm here for the protection of the innocent' - well meaning but, no, you're not. That's the job of the LEO. You are licensed/armed/OC-ing for the protection of yourself in the gravest extreme or your loved ones' self-defense if they are in a life threatening encounter with an armed perp. Do not feel the need to hap-hazardly step in and protect someone whom you don't know, who could be an undercover LEO's target, who could be in a DV situation. You'll get charged, or worse, shot.

    IMO the best defense to pointed questions is videoing, then calling it in as stalking. Don't leave the store, where you are protected.

    Also, most needs for firearms, I'd guess is not in the actual store but in the store parking lot. Doubt that would have shut him up though. After the second questioning, I'd be on the phone to 911 with a stalking complaint. Again get audio or video first to support your claim. You MUST be so prepared if you are going to OC.
    And for over a hundred years when we didn't have proactive police force who protected the innocent? Other armed citizens. And courts have upheld that cops have no duty to protect.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Anyone have a link to the case that set the "no expectation of privacy in public", I looked around for it earlier today, but came up empty.

    That's the job of the LEO is not supported by http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=1&oi=scholarr
    Last edited by Vitaeus; 04-24-2012 at 01:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Oh, on the 'I'm here for the protection of the innocent' - well meaning but, no, you're not. That's the job of the LEO. You are licensed/armed/OC-ing for the protection of yourself in the gravest extreme or your loved ones' self-defense if they are in a life threatening encounter with an armed perp. Do not feel the need to hap-hazardly step in and protect someone whom you don't know, who could be an undercover LEO's target, who could be in a DV situation. You'll get charged, or worse, shot
    Really? I'm not an innocent? As far as I know I haven't broken any laws. The line is a veiled reference that as a law abiding citizen I have the right to be safe by making BGs unsafe. Sometimes a broad and vague answer to some idiot's question is the right step.

    I'm smart enough to know that if I draw my firearm I stand a good chance of having to explain it to a judge and jury. Any emergency I step into I need to be fully aware of all the facts before I get involved; be it fire, medical, or violence. I am not a wannabe action star. I'm just another Jack on the street trying to get by with minimal problems.

    All that being said, if I encounter an event where the line is clear I will do the best I can to render aid.
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

    I believe in freedom, Mr. Lipwig. Not many people do, although they will, of course, protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.

    The freedom to succeed goes hand in hand with the freedom to fail. - Going Postal, Terry Pratchett

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    "You have a permit for that??" Don't need a permit to open carry in WA, perfectly legal. "Well we'll have to change that!" Storms off again.
    Yep, a confirmed case of "there oughta be a law" syndrome. Most commonly found in soft-headed liberals, it also disturbingly rears it ugly head among some "conservatives" when they observe behavior they dislike, but that causes no harm to their lives, liberty, or property.

    I have even seen some simple fools on this forum argue that any police encounter in which the OC'er is let go, no matter how unjustified the stop, is a positive thing because it educates the sheeple. Unfortunately, as seen above, there is just as high a likelihood of the butthurt, offended citizen writing a letter to his state representatives, advocating for a law against OC.

    ADMINISTRATOR'S NOTE: This feud with Beretta92FSLady will end NOW! I have also edited your sig to remove your attack against her there. Move on. Dispute the issues not each other!
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 04-24-2012 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Another poster's sensitivity... ;-)
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    Anyone have a link to the case that set the "no expectation of privacy in public", I looked around for it earlier today, but came up empty.
    Katz vs US has the privacy test. It is in the concurring opinion by Harlan.

    Obviously, anything in public is likely to not have much of an expectation of privacy, but that is not an ironclad rule. Katz involved making a call from a public phone booth--the kind with a closeable door. And, such a conversation was held to be private. Even though it was in public. Closing the door was cited as an example of a reasonable expectation of privacy. Thus, not everything done in public has no expectation of privacy.

    ...For the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places. What a person knowingly exposes to the public, even in his own home or office, is not a subject of Fourth Amendment protection. (internal cites omitted by Citizen) But what he seeks to preserve as private, even in an area accessible to the public, may be constitutionally protected....

    Katz: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...416594&scilh=0

    Helpful research hint: When it comes to court cases, and legal terminology, I find that wikipedia is real helpful because it very often cites the cases amidst the articles' text. Now, let me be clear here. Wiki articles are not the authority; it is just a fast way to find the cites.

    Helpful research hint: There is a blog which has tons and tons of 4th Amendment case law stuff. Plus, daily case summaries by the criminal attorney who maintains the blog. Great site! www.fourthamendment.com


    Personal observation: I'm guessing that despite outcome of the case, Katz was probably guilty of felineous conduct.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-24-2012 at 02:35 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Yep, a confirmed case of "there oughta be a law" syndrome. Most commonly found in soft-headed liberals like Beretta92fslady, it also disturbingly rears it ugly head among some "conservatives" when they observe behavior they dislike, but that causes no harm to their lives, liberty, or property.

    I have even seen some simple fools on this forum argue that any police encounter in which the OC'er is let go, no matter how unjustified the stop, is a positive thing because it educates the sheeple. Unfortunately, as seen above, there is just as high a likelihood of the butthurt, offended citizen writing a letter to his state representatives, advocating for a law against OC.
    Seriously? Enough of the personal attacks on Beretta. Do you like having your posts deleted? Grow up.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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