Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: i have some questions

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    springfield missouri
    Posts
    3

    i have some questions

    Hi, I am a new member and I would basically just like to ask a few questions. I am a resident of Missouri, a state which I have come to know as an Open Carry friendly state. However, I am currently 17 years old. Some of my questions include the process of obtaining a handgun, which I know is not relevant to the Open Carry topic, but I do have other questions relating to that as well.

    First off, I will be turning 18 in November of this year.
    1. If either of my parents or other members of my family obtain a handgun will I, having turned 18, be able to purchase said handgun from them legally and possess it legally?

    2. If the answer to the first question is yes, am I legally allowed the right to open carry at the age of 18? The reason I express interest in open carrying is I believe that unlike concealed carry, open carrying can stop a crime from ever even being attempted.

    If anyone could help answer my questions it would be much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Welcome to OCDO!! (Open Carry dot Org)

    I don't know the answers to your questions; best to wait for members from your state. I just wanted to welcome you.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    IIRC, you can purchase from a private party at 18 or older; have to be 21 to purchase from an FFL. Also, to OC, one has to be 18.

    However, I strongly suggest you check local laws/ordinances to verify what they say about OC.

    If you own property, you can OC at any age, on it.

    Generally, You can carry in your vehicle, if it is unloaded.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    springfield missouri
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    IIRC, you can purchase from a private party at 18 or older; have to be 21 to purchase from an FFL. Also, to OC, one has to be 18.

    However, I strongly suggest you check local laws/ordinances to verify what they say about OC.

    If you own property, you can OC at any age, on it.

    Generally, You can carry in your vehicle, if it is unloaded.
    ok thanks for the info

  5. #5
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    Generally, You can carry in your vehicle, if it is unloaded.
    Sorry, but this part is completely wrong. The Missouri Peaceable Journey Exemption law covers this. Basically, as long as you are over 18, you can carry open or concealed, on your person or in the vehicle, loaded or unloaded. Carry however you want. Just remember, to be legal when you get out of your car, you must OC if you are over 18 and don't have a CCW. And personally, I feel that unloading and reloading just increases the chance of a negligent discharge.

    Also, you can get a non-resident CCW from Maine at 18. It offers that same rights within Missouri as a MO permit would, except there is less you have to do in the class. When traveling to other states, it may not transfer your rights. Ie, a Missouri CCW permit will be honored in Texas, but a Maine non-res held my a Missouri resident won't be. (I know, it's a ridiculous mess.) If you plan on doing much interstate traveling, this is a good map to help you with that.
    Last edited by HighFlyingA380; 05-12-2012 at 04:41 PM.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.
    XD40 Service
    -Hogue Handall grip sleeve
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    -TruGlo TFO night sights
    Olympic Arms K16-SST
    -16" stainless bull-barrel
    -Quad-rail forearm
    -Millet SP2 red-dot scope
    -Fore grip w/ bi-pod
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    KelTec P11
    -Bone stock; Not much you can do to these little guys.
    No one can make a pencil...

  6. #6
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Sorry, but this part is completely wrong. The Missouri Peaceable Journey Exemption law covers this. Basically, as long as you are over 18, you can carry open or concealed, on your person or in the vehicle, loaded or unloaded. Carry however you want. Just remember, to be legal when you get out of your car, you must OC if you are over 18 and don't have a CCW. And personally, I feel that unloading and reloading just increases the chance of a negligent discharge.

    Also, you can get a non-resident CCW from Maine at 18. It offers that same rights within Missouri as a MO permit would, except there is less you have to do in the class. When traveling to other states, it may not transfer your rights. Ie, a Missouri CCW permit will be honored in Texas, but a Maine non-res held my a Missouri resident won't be. (I know, it's a ridiculous mess.) If you plan on doing much interstate traveling, this is a good map to help you with that.
    Could you provide to me the statute and/or link for Peaceable Journey?
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  7. #7
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    Could you provide to me the statute and/or link for Peaceable Journey?
    RSMO 571.030 section 1

    "...Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state..."

    (for reference, subdivision (1) of subsection 1 states: "A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly: Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;")
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.
    XD40 Service
    -Hogue Handall grip sleeve
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    -TruGlo TFO night sights
    Olympic Arms K16-SST
    -16" stainless bull-barrel
    -Quad-rail forearm
    -Millet SP2 red-dot scope
    -Fore grip w/ bi-pod
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    KelTec P11
    -Bone stock; Not much you can do to these little guys.
    No one can make a pencil...

  8. #8
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Cite as State v. Collins, 879 S.W.2d 585 (Mo.Ct.App. 1994)

    Read this case.

    Know the law where you are at that time.

    This is hard work, many hours of study. Buy a recording device. Be polite, be calm, yet be firm in your defense of your rights.

    Stay safe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  9. #9
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    RSMO 571.030 section 1

    "...Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state..."

    (for reference, subdivision (1) of subsection 1 states: "A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly: Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;")
    How does this translate to 18 years old? Not questioning you, but this statute indicates 21; and based upon the verbage, it dosn't distinguish anyone under 18.

    Thx!
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    The peaceable journey clause is a separate exemption to cover 'concealed' weapon violations is my guess. OC is legal in MO, as a rule, therefore legal for 18yo folks. They can drive and if the firearm would be OC beyond the confines of the vehicle the legislature is likely stating that they are legal while driving. If your firearm is under your shirt, CCW, while driving a CCW endorsement is not required if you are 21yo or older. But, I am not any sort of legal scholar.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The peaceable journey clause is a separate exemption to cover 'concealed' weapon violations is my guess. OC is legal in MO, as a rule, therefore legal for 18yo folks. They can drive and if the firearm would be OC beyond the confines of the vehicle the legislature is likely stating that they are legal while driving. If your firearm is under your shirt, CCW, while driving a CCW endorsement is not required if you are 21yo or older. But, I am not any sort of legal scholar.
    Thanks OC.

    This is actually the conversation I have had with some others that are further advanced in law in MO than myself. I was more curious if there was something else than this interpretation, where an actual statute lists the age and such.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  12. #12
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301
    Pretty much what OCforME was saying, the peaceable journey is an extension of castle law, where as the section from the firearms statute is simply a clarification relating to concealed carriers, since that's the section it's in.

    This is exactly why I hate reading laws and stuff, it's so damn confusing.
    Last edited by HighFlyingA380; 05-14-2012 at 03:23 PM.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.
    XD40 Service
    -Hogue Handall grip sleeve
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    -TruGlo TFO night sights
    Olympic Arms K16-SST
    -16" stainless bull-barrel
    -Quad-rail forearm
    -Millet SP2 red-dot scope
    -Fore grip w/ bi-pod
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    KelTec P11
    -Bone stock; Not much you can do to these little guys.
    No one can make a pencil...

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Pretty much what OCforME was saying, the peaceable journey is an extension of castle law
    Castle law only defines where you do not have a duty to retreat. In any other place not explicitly listed as an exemption for retreat, you are expected to do so if you can retreat in complete safety. A high burden no doubt. The travelers exemption has been in Missouri law since 1874, substantially longer than the castle law.

    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    where as the section from the firearms statute is simply a clarification relating to concealed carriers, since that's the section it's in.
    Be careful of using the 'travelers exemption'/'peaceable journey' exception. There are many convictions for it in Missouri, where a person thought it would apply. When a person raises the issue of the peaceable journey they (the defendant) has the burden of proving the peaceable journey. If you are pulled over by a peace officer there is some assumption that you were pulled over for breaking a law, and there have been times when that was substantial enough to prove that the defendant wasn't traveling 'peacefully'. Then there is the burden of proving you are a traveler and the exemption applies. If you are on a milk run 2 miles from home, or stopping off at a convenience store for something, you aren't 'traveling peaceably in a continuous journey'.

    Think of this like a train. Once it starts moving it is hard to stop. The state will do it's best to keep that train from moving. If you assert that you were traveling on a peaceful journey in the state, and the state can't disprove it, they have a high hurdle to jump to convict you of a weapons offense. If they can discredit your 'peaceful journey' before it's established, a weapons conviction is much easier to prove. Using the non-lethal defense is also a high burden, but for the defendant. Having ammunition anywhere within reach of the passenger compartment, and also having a firearm within reach, means it is 'readily capable of lethal use.' The person holding the firearm and the person holding the ammunition could be two different people, and both of them could face a weapons charge.

    Now this doesn't mean the peaceable journey hasn't been used as a defense to win a criminal case, because it has before. And in some cases even on appeal a conviction was overturned and the defendant released from their sentence. But it can be a difficult road to travel and it may land you in court with legal fees, and the worry of what will happen. It is after all a felony conviction which will bar you from owning firearms entirely. All this raises from the issue of the weapon being concealed. If the weapon were in plain view there would be no weapon offense to charge the defendant with.

    The exemption for those 21 or older was added because of this very situation where defendants just weren't always able to articulate that they were traveling in a continuous journey and they were convicted of a felony for something that really wasn't so much an issue. Unfortunately, that doesn't help those between 18 and 20.

    All told, just be careful.

  14. #14
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301
    Shooter64738, the way I have always been told how castle law relates to the vehicle is that it is basically an extension of your residence, in which case you have no duty to retreat, therefore any gun rights you would have in your home would also extend to your vehicle. (from the family lawyer)

    As for your "milk run" example, the MSHP brochure specifically states that this "includes Missourians whose trip begins and/or ends in Missouri."
    do you have any case citations which show the convictions even when peaceable journey was supposedly in action?
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.
    XD40 Service
    -Hogue Handall grip sleeve
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    -TruGlo TFO night sights
    Olympic Arms K16-SST
    -16" stainless bull-barrel
    -Quad-rail forearm
    -Millet SP2 red-dot scope
    -Fore grip w/ bi-pod
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    KelTec P11
    -Bone stock; Not much you can do to these little guys.
    No one can make a pencil...

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    st louis
    Posts
    640
    what does "dwelling unit" describe in the exposed firearm portion? i do not see the description of "passenger compartment of motor vehicle" like the conceal carry sentence.

    castle law is about defending yourself, not about how you are able to carry a firearm. castle law extends extend to your vehicle. i myself do not clearly see an preemption for carrying openly in your vehicle unless hunting, peaceful journey.
    if i am not mistaken, dwelling is loosely defined as an inhabitable structure.

    i may be wrong this is my interpretation. please lend me your input.
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

  16. #16
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    what does "dwelling unit" describe in the exposed firearm portion? i do not see the description of "passenger compartment of motor vehicle" like the conceal carry sentence.

    castle law is about defending yourself, not about how you are able to carry a firearm. castle law extends extend to your vehicle. i myself do not clearly see an preemption for carrying openly in your vehicle unless hunting, peaceful journey.
    if i am not mistaken, dwelling is loosely defined as an inhabitable structure.

    i may be wrong this is my interpretation. please lend me your input.
    I don't really know all the specific definitions or anything, but I go by the MSHP brochure I posted above, specifically two sections:

    Page 5:
    Carrying in a vehicle:
    In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
    now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
    firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
    endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception
    to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous
    peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey exception
    is still in the law
    , and may apply in circumstances where the new law
    does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old).
    Also, any coroner, deputy
    coroner, medical examiner, or assistant medical examiner may carry a concealable
    fi rearm upon or about their person without an endorsement.

    and page 6:
    Does a person carrying a weapon in a vehicle also have to have a permit for the gun?
    No. A weapon may be carried anywhere in a vehicle, even
    concealed on the person, under the vehicle exception.

    What I suggest is to print out the brochure, along with the laws, and keep them in your car. If you get stopped and they don't think you're legal, you can show them the MSHP brochure. Even tho it's kinda old, I know for a fact that they are still giving them out, because the information is current.
    Last edited by HighFlyingA380; 05-16-2012 at 03:25 AM.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.
    XD40 Service
    -Hogue Handall grip sleeve
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    -TruGlo TFO night sights
    Olympic Arms K16-SST
    -16" stainless bull-barrel
    -Quad-rail forearm
    -Millet SP2 red-dot scope
    -Fore grip w/ bi-pod
    -Nebo Protec Elite light/laser
    KelTec P11
    -Bone stock; Not much you can do to these little guys.
    No one can make a pencil...

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Shooter64738, the way I have always been told how castle law relates to the vehicle is that it is basically an extension of your residence, in which case you have no duty to retreat, therefore any gun rights you would have in your home would also extend to your vehicle. (from the family lawyer)
    This is partially correct. Your vehicle (only when occupied) falls into a specifically stated exemption for a location you do not have to retreat from. However, only your protections from prosecution for self defense are covered, not your protection from prosecution for having a concealed firearm, readily capable of lethal use if you are 18,19, or 20 and have no permit.

    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    As for your "milk run" example, the MSHP brochure specifically states that this "includes Missourians whose trip begins and/or ends in Missouri."
    do you have any case citations which show the convictions even when peaceable journey was supposedly in action?
    Peaceable journey exemption does apply to interstate and intrastate travel, but what is a 'journey'? KC to St. Louis is a journey. Rolla to Columbia is a journey. 2 blocks from your house, not likely. I'm not saying peaceable journey has never been used successfully. I am saying do not rely on it as a cover all if you don't have a permit, because there are successful prosecutions for it leaving the defendant with a felony conviction.


    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    I don't really know all the specific definitions or anything, but I go by the MSHP brochure I posted above, specifically two sections:

    Page 5:
    Carrying in a vehicle:
    In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
    now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
    firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
    endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception
    to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous
    peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey exception
    is still in the law
    , and may apply in circumstances where the new law
    does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old).
    Also, any coroner, deputy
    coroner, medical examiner, or assistant medical examiner may carry a concealable
    fi rearm upon or about their person without an endorsement.

    and page 6:
    Does a person carrying a weapon in a vehicle also have to have a permit for the gun?
    No. A weapon may be carried anywhere in a vehicle, even
    concealed on the person, under the vehicle exception.

    What I suggest is to print out the brochure, along with the laws, and keep them in your car. If you get stopped and they don't think you're legal, you can show them the MSHP brochure. Even tho it's kinda old, I know for a fact that they are still giving them out, because the information is current.
    Missouri enacted it's exemption for vehicle carry to protect those person who did not fall under the peaceable journey exemption. But they failed to include everyone who could legally posses a firearm when they made it apply to those 21 and older.

    Online Case Citations: (These are appeal cases. There are cases that never were appealed. The defendant just moved on probably for lack of money)
    Missouri v White
    https://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=19580
    White was arrested for possession of marijuana and carrying a concealed firearm in his vehicle. However the state didn't substantially stop the 'peaceable journey' train and his weapons charge was over turned because they claimed his possession of marijuana made him exempt from the peaceable journey exception. The state was wrong, and the jury should have been given the jury that instruction.

    Missouri v Davis
    https://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=19541
    Davis was arrested and charged for possession of a concealed firearm, and having an open container. At trial his defense attempted to raise the peaceable journey and non-lethal exceptions. His conviction was upheld on both charges, because his defense did not adequately establish that he was traveling in a continuous peaceful journey. From this case you can find several things. What do they define as 'readily capable', how do they consider a weapon concealed, how do they establish a continuous journey.

    Missouri v O'Toole
    https://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=15267
    O'Toole was charged with unlawful use of a weapon for having a concealed firearm in his vehicle while traveling intrastate. He was convicted, but it was overturned on appeal because the state did not adequately disprove O'Tooles assertion that he was traveling on a peaceful journey.

    I am only saying be careful. Establish that you are on a journey away from your home, establish that you are traveling peacefully (not for an unlawful purpose), and don't let the state poke holes in your evidence. Once you get that established you should be free and clear.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / Rolla, MO
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by brett m60 View Post
    Hi, I am a new member and I would basically just like to ask a few questions. I am a resident of Missouri, a state which I have come to know as an Open Carry friendly state. However, I am currently 17 years old. Some of my questions include the process of obtaining a handgun, which I know is not relevant to the Open Carry topic, but I do have other questions relating to that as well.

    First off, I will be turning 18 in November of this year.
    1. If either of my parents or other members of my family obtain a handgun will I, having turned 18, be able to purchase said handgun from them legally and possess it legally?

    2. If the answer to the first question is yes, am I legally allowed the right to open carry at the age of 18? The reason I express interest in open carrying is I believe that unlike concealed carry, open carrying can stop a crime from ever even being attempted.

    If anyone could help answer my questions it would be much appreciated.
    Be careful on the first point, you would be in violation of federal law if they buy it for you as it would be a straw purchase by the law so be careful about how you tell people and who you tell. Otherwise I've bought 5 handguns and sold 3 of them all in private sales, currently looking at a trade . Open carry is legal at 18, but be wary about the preventing crime aspect, it can also make you the first target in a situation of a dedicated criminal so always practice environmental awareness.

  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Don't guess or use the MSHP website....read the law!
    RSMo 563.031.3. A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining. A person does not have a duty to retreat from private property that is owned or leased by such individual.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5630000031.HTM
    In essence, you do not have to retreat from any place you are lawfully permitted to be. 'Castle' does not mean only your non-mobile castle or mobile castle.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Don't guess or use the MSHP website....read the law!In essence, you do not have to retreat from any place you are lawfully permitted to be. 'Castle' does not mean only your non-mobile castle or mobile castle.
    Using the term 'any place' may be misleading to some.
    The only place a retreat is anticipated is public or private property which you do not own/lease/rent. A grocery store is private property that you dont likely own or lease. A sidewalk is generally public property that a private person does not own or lease.

    However you are only expected to retreat if you can do so 'in complete safety' which is an almost impossible burden to reach in a true life or death struggle. The retreat of course only applies when outside one of the defined locations.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •