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i have some questions

brett m60

New member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3
Location
springfield missouri
Hi, I am a new member and I would basically just like to ask a few questions. I am a resident of Missouri, a state which I have come to know as an Open Carry friendly state. However, I am currently 17 years old. Some of my questions include the process of obtaining a handgun, which I know is not relevant to the Open Carry topic, but I do have other questions relating to that as well.

First off, I will be turning 18 in November of this year.
1. If either of my parents or other members of my family obtain a handgun will I, having turned 18, be able to purchase said handgun from them legally and possess it legally?

2. If the answer to the first question is yes, am I legally allowed the right to open carry at the age of 18? The reason I express interest in open carrying is I believe that unlike concealed carry, open carrying can stop a crime from ever even being attempted.

If anyone could help answer my questions it would be much appreciated.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Welcome to OCDO!! (Open Carry dot Org)

I don't know the answers to your questions; best to wait for members from your state. I just wanted to welcome you.
 

Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
IIRC, you can purchase from a private party at 18 or older; have to be 21 to purchase from an FFL. Also, to OC, one has to be 18.

However, I strongly suggest you check local laws/ordinances to verify what they say about OC.

If you own property, you can OC at any age, on it.

Generally, You can carry in your vehicle, if it is unloaded.
 

brett m60

New member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3
Location
springfield missouri
IIRC, you can purchase from a private party at 18 or older; have to be 21 to purchase from an FFL. Also, to OC, one has to be 18.

However, I strongly suggest you check local laws/ordinances to verify what they say about OC.

If you own property, you can OC at any age, on it.

Generally, You can carry in your vehicle, if it is unloaded.

ok thanks for the info
 

HighFlyingA380

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Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
301
Location
West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
Generally, You can carry in your vehicle, if it is unloaded.
Sorry, but this part is completely wrong. The Missouri Peaceable Journey Exemption law covers this. Basically, as long as you are over 18, you can carry open or concealed, on your person or in the vehicle, loaded or unloaded. Carry however you want. Just remember, to be legal when you get out of your car, you must OC if you are over 18 and don't have a CCW. And personally, I feel that unloading and reloading just increases the chance of a negligent discharge.

Also, you can get a non-resident CCW from Maine at 18. It offers that same rights within Missouri as a MO permit would, except there is less you have to do in the class. When traveling to other states, it may not transfer your rights. Ie, a Missouri CCW permit will be honored in Texas, but a Maine non-res held my a Missouri resident won't be. (I know, it's a ridiculous mess.) If you plan on doing much interstate traveling, this is a good map to help you with that.
 
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Redbaron007

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Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
Sorry, but this part is completely wrong. The Missouri Peaceable Journey Exemption law covers this. Basically, as long as you are over 18, you can carry open or concealed, on your person or in the vehicle, loaded or unloaded. Carry however you want. Just remember, to be legal when you get out of your car, you must OC if you are over 18 and don't have a CCW. And personally, I feel that unloading and reloading just increases the chance of a negligent discharge.

Also, you can get a non-resident CCW from Maine at 18. It offers that same rights within Missouri as a MO permit would, except there is less you have to do in the class. When traveling to other states, it may not transfer your rights. Ie, a Missouri CCW permit will be honored in Texas, but a Maine non-res held my a Missouri resident won't be. (I know, it's a ridiculous mess.) If you plan on doing much interstate traveling, this is a good map to help you with that.

Could you provide to me the statute and/or link for Peaceable Journey?
 

HighFlyingA380

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Messages
301
Location
West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
Could you provide to me the statute and/or link for Peaceable Journey?
RSMO 571.030 section 1

"...Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state..."

(for reference, subdivision (1) of subsection 1 states: "A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly: Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;")
 

Redbaron007

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Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
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Location
SW MO
RSMO 571.030 section 1

"...Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state..."

(for reference, subdivision (1) of subsection 1 states: "A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly: Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;")

How does this translate to 18 years old? Not questioning you, but this statute indicates 21; and based upon the verbage, it dosn't distinguish anyone under 18.

Thx!
 

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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White Oak Plantation
The peaceable journey clause is a separate exemption to cover 'concealed' weapon violations is my guess. OC is legal in MO, as a rule, therefore legal for 18yo folks. They can drive and if the firearm would be OC beyond the confines of the vehicle the legislature is likely stating that they are legal while driving. If your firearm is under your shirt, CCW, while driving a CCW endorsement is not required if you are 21yo or older. But, I am not any sort of legal scholar.
 

Redbaron007

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Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
The peaceable journey clause is a separate exemption to cover 'concealed' weapon violations is my guess. OC is legal in MO, as a rule, therefore legal for 18yo folks. They can drive and if the firearm would be OC beyond the confines of the vehicle the legislature is likely stating that they are legal while driving. If your firearm is under your shirt, CCW, while driving a CCW endorsement is not required if you are 21yo or older. But, I am not any sort of legal scholar.

Thanks OC.

This is actually the conversation I have had with some others that are further advanced in law in MO than myself. I was more curious if there was something else than this interpretation, where an actual statute lists the age and such.
 

HighFlyingA380

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301
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West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
Pretty much what OCforME was saying, the peaceable journey is an extension of castle law, where as the section from the firearms statute is simply a clarification relating to concealed carriers, since that's the section it's in.

This is exactly why I hate reading laws and stuff, it's so damn confusing.
 
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Shooter64738

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Sep 25, 2010
Messages
107
Location
Missouri
Pretty much what OCforME was saying, the peaceable journey is an extension of castle law
Castle law only defines where you do not have a duty to retreat. In any other place not explicitly listed as an exemption for retreat, you are expected to do so if you can retreat in complete safety. A high burden no doubt. The travelers exemption has been in Missouri law since 1874, substantially longer than the castle law.

where as the section from the firearms statute is simply a clarification relating to concealed carriers, since that's the section it's in.
Be careful of using the 'travelers exemption'/'peaceable journey' exception. There are many convictions for it in Missouri, where a person thought it would apply. When a person raises the issue of the peaceable journey they (the defendant) has the burden of proving the peaceable journey. If you are pulled over by a peace officer there is some assumption that you were pulled over for breaking a law, and there have been times when that was substantial enough to prove that the defendant wasn't traveling 'peacefully'. Then there is the burden of proving you are a traveler and the exemption applies. If you are on a milk run 2 miles from home, or stopping off at a convenience store for something, you aren't 'traveling peaceably in a continuous journey'.

Think of this like a train. Once it starts moving it is hard to stop. The state will do it's best to keep that train from moving. If you assert that you were traveling on a peaceful journey in the state, and the state can't disprove it, they have a high hurdle to jump to convict you of a weapons offense. If they can discredit your 'peaceful journey' before it's established, a weapons conviction is much easier to prove. Using the non-lethal defense is also a high burden, but for the defendant. Having ammunition anywhere within reach of the passenger compartment, and also having a firearm within reach, means it is 'readily capable of lethal use.' The person holding the firearm and the person holding the ammunition could be two different people, and both of them could face a weapons charge.

Now this doesn't mean the peaceable journey hasn't been used as a defense to win a criminal case, because it has before. And in some cases even on appeal a conviction was overturned and the defendant released from their sentence. But it can be a difficult road to travel and it may land you in court with legal fees, and the worry of what will happen. It is after all a felony conviction which will bar you from owning firearms entirely. All this raises from the issue of the weapon being concealed. If the weapon were in plain view there would be no weapon offense to charge the defendant with.

The exemption for those 21 or older was added because of this very situation where defendants just weren't always able to articulate that they were traveling in a continuous journey and they were convicted of a felony for something that really wasn't so much an issue. Unfortunately, that doesn't help those between 18 and 20.

All told, just be careful.
 

HighFlyingA380

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Shooter64738, the way I have always been told how castle law relates to the vehicle is that it is basically an extension of your residence, in which case you have no duty to retreat, therefore any gun rights you would have in your home would also extend to your vehicle. (from the family lawyer)

As for your "milk run" example, the MSHP brochure specifically states that this "includes Missourians whose trip begins and/or ends in Missouri."
do you have any case citations which show the convictions even when peaceable journey was supposedly in action?
 

kylemoul

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Jan 1, 2011
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640
Location
st louis
what does "dwelling unit" describe in the exposed firearm portion? i do not see the description of "passenger compartment of motor vehicle" like the conceal carry sentence.

castle law is about defending yourself, not about how you are able to carry a firearm. castle law extends extend to your vehicle. i myself do not clearly see an preemption for carrying openly in your vehicle unless hunting, peaceful journey.
if i am not mistaken, dwelling is loosely defined as an inhabitable structure.

i may be wrong this is my interpretation. please lend me your input.
 

HighFlyingA380

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Nov 30, 2011
Messages
301
Location
West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
what does "dwelling unit" describe in the exposed firearm portion? i do not see the description of "passenger compartment of motor vehicle" like the conceal carry sentence.

castle law is about defending yourself, not about how you are able to carry a firearm. castle law extends extend to your vehicle. i myself do not clearly see an preemption for carrying openly in your vehicle unless hunting, peaceful journey.
if i am not mistaken, dwelling is loosely defined as an inhabitable structure.

i may be wrong this is my interpretation. please lend me your input.
I don't really know all the specific definitions or anything, but I go by the MSHP brochure I posted above, specifically two sections:

Page 5:
Carrying in a vehicle:
In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception
to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous
peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey exception
is still in the law
, and may apply in circumstances where the new law
does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old).
Also, any coroner, deputy
coroner, medical examiner, or assistant medical examiner may carry a concealable
fi rearm upon or about their person without an endorsement.

and page 6:
Does a person carrying a weapon in a vehicle also have to have a permit for the gun?
No. A weapon may be carried anywhere in a vehicle, even
concealed on the person, under the vehicle exception.

What I suggest is to print out the brochure, along with the laws, and keep them in your car. If you get stopped and they don't think you're legal, you can show them the MSHP brochure. Even tho it's kinda old, I know for a fact that they are still giving them out, because the information is current.
 
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Shooter64738

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
107
Location
Missouri
Shooter64738, the way I have always been told how castle law relates to the vehicle is that it is basically an extension of your residence, in which case you have no duty to retreat, therefore any gun rights you would have in your home would also extend to your vehicle. (from the family lawyer)
This is partially correct. Your vehicle (only when occupied) falls into a specifically stated exemption for a location you do not have to retreat from. However, only your protections from prosecution for self defense are covered, not your protection from prosecution for having a concealed firearm, readily capable of lethal use if you are 18,19, or 20 and have no permit.

As for your "milk run" example, the MSHP brochure specifically states that this "includes Missourians whose trip begins and/or ends in Missouri."
do you have any case citations which show the convictions even when peaceable journey was supposedly in action?
Peaceable journey exemption does apply to interstate and intrastate travel, but what is a 'journey'? KC to St. Louis is a journey. Rolla to Columbia is a journey. 2 blocks from your house, not likely. I'm not saying peaceable journey has never been used successfully. I am saying do not rely on it as a cover all if you don't have a permit, because there are successful prosecutions for it leaving the defendant with a felony conviction.


I don't really know all the specific definitions or anything, but I go by the MSHP brochure I posted above, specifically two sections:

Page 5:
Carrying in a vehicle:
In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception
to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous
peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey exception
is still in the law
, and may apply in circumstances where the new law
does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old).
Also, any coroner, deputy
coroner, medical examiner, or assistant medical examiner may carry a concealable
fi rearm upon or about their person without an endorsement.

and page 6:
Does a person carrying a weapon in a vehicle also have to have a permit for the gun?
No. A weapon may be carried anywhere in a vehicle, even
concealed on the person, under the vehicle exception.

What I suggest is to print out the brochure, along with the laws, and keep them in your car. If you get stopped and they don't think you're legal, you can show them the MSHP brochure. Even tho it's kinda old, I know for a fact that they are still giving them out, because the information is current.

Missouri enacted it's exemption for vehicle carry to protect those person who did not fall under the peaceable journey exemption. But they failed to include everyone who could legally posses a firearm when they made it apply to those 21 and older.

Online Case Citations: (These are appeal cases. There are cases that never were appealed. The defendant just moved on probably for lack of money)
Missouri v White
https://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=19580
White was arrested for possession of marijuana and carrying a concealed firearm in his vehicle. However the state didn't substantially stop the 'peaceable journey' train and his weapons charge was over turned because they claimed his possession of marijuana made him exempt from the peaceable journey exception. The state was wrong, and the jury should have been given the jury that instruction.

Missouri v Davis
https://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=19541
Davis was arrested and charged for possession of a concealed firearm, and having an open container. At trial his defense attempted to raise the peaceable journey and non-lethal exceptions. His conviction was upheld on both charges, because his defense did not adequately establish that he was traveling in a continuous peaceful journey. From this case you can find several things. What do they define as 'readily capable', how do they consider a weapon concealed, how do they establish a continuous journey.

Missouri v O'Toole
https://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=15267
O'Toole was charged with unlawful use of a weapon for having a concealed firearm in his vehicle while traveling intrastate. He was convicted, but it was overturned on appeal because the state did not adequately disprove O'Tooles assertion that he was traveling on a peaceful journey.

I am only saying be careful. Establish that you are on a journey away from your home, establish that you are traveling peacefully (not for an unlawful purpose), and don't let the state poke holes in your evidence. Once you get that established you should be free and clear.
 

wolfgangmob

Regular Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
90
Location
St. Louis, MO / Rolla, MO
Hi, I am a new member and I would basically just like to ask a few questions. I am a resident of Missouri, a state which I have come to know as an Open Carry friendly state. However, I am currently 17 years old. Some of my questions include the process of obtaining a handgun, which I know is not relevant to the Open Carry topic, but I do have other questions relating to that as well.

First off, I will be turning 18 in November of this year.
1. If either of my parents or other members of my family obtain a handgun will I, having turned 18, be able to purchase said handgun from them legally and possess it legally?

2. If the answer to the first question is yes, am I legally allowed the right to open carry at the age of 18? The reason I express interest in open carrying is I believe that unlike concealed carry, open carrying can stop a crime from ever even being attempted.

If anyone could help answer my questions it would be much appreciated.

Be careful on the first point, you would be in violation of federal law if they buy it for you as it would be a straw purchase by the law so be careful about how you tell people and who you tell. Otherwise I've bought 5 handguns and sold 3 of them all in private sales, currently looking at a trade ;) . Open carry is legal at 18, but be wary about the preventing crime aspect, it can also make you the first target in a situation of a dedicated criminal so always practice environmental awareness.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Don't guess or use the MSHP website....read the law!
RSMo 563.031.3. A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining. A person does not have a duty to retreat from private property that is owned or leased by such individual.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5630000031.HTM
In essence, you do not have to retreat from any place you are lawfully permitted to be. 'Castle' does not mean only your non-mobile castle or mobile castle.
 

Shooter64738

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
107
Location
Missouri
Don't guess or use the MSHP website....read the law!In essence, you do not have to retreat from any place you are lawfully permitted to be. 'Castle' does not mean only your non-mobile castle or mobile castle.

Using the term 'any place' may be misleading to some.
The only place a retreat is anticipated is public or private property which you do not own/lease/rent. A grocery store is private property that you dont likely own or lease. A sidewalk is generally public property that a private person does not own or lease.

However you are only expected to retreat if you can do so 'in complete safety' which is an almost impossible burden to reach in a true life or death struggle. The retreat of course only applies when outside one of the defined locations.
 
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