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Thread: Why I love OCDO...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Why I love OCDO...

    Even though I have occasionally pissed off the moderators, posted things that are politically incorrect, called prominent politicians out for the racist, classist elitist oligarchs that they are, and even suggested that certain "gun rights" organizations may actually be "controlled opposition", I'm still here after 3 years...

    Even though my testimony for MD HB-45 was one of the main motivators for Del. Alston to change her mind to our side, and she actually asked me to finish part of my presentation after the chairman had cut me off, and Del. Smigiel used my "MD LEO Bad Boys" list to drive home the point that citizens in MD are actually MORE trustworthy than LEOs with regards to carry, and a certain un-named MD gun rights group actually USED MY ADVICE and used a PIA request to get permit application info on ALL the legislators and threatened to discuss it during the testimonies--I am STILL "banned for life" from a certain other forum because I SUGGESTED exactly the sort of things that Del. Smigiel and MD Gun Rights organizations are now adopting as their official tactics.

    Thank you, OCDO, for providing a forum where truth is not suppressed, grudges are not kept, members who are actually ACTIVE workers FOR gun rights are appreciated, true research is recognized, and vindictive political machinations are not the rule of the day.

    OCDO is the only 2A-related forum I spend any time on, because it is so much better than ANY other forum I've ever visited. Our mods are usually pretty fair, the members are knowledgeable, and people keep things relatively civil and polite (compared to other 2A forums...)

    Keep up the GREAT work, guys!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  2. #2
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Great post. But the fact remains, most 'guys' are into the 'pecking order' of things, are testosterone poisoned and they don't want you the have a bigger gun (or a better opinion) on certain issues, so they react as children and do things like ban you for free speech. Cops cuff and stuff you because at heart a lot of them, though decent guys, are just 8 year olds who want to take their ball home if they don't get their way. So glad to hear that by hanging in there, being rational you achieved some real progress (especially in Maryland!)
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Dude, you are COMPLETELY wrong.........


    ....about Delegate Alston. She was already on our side. I spoke with her at least 3 years ago about ccw when she was campaigning I believe, and she was for it then. Said she had to handle the very vocal concerns of her constituents with "kid gloves" though.

    I wonder how she'll make out with the charges against her though......

  4. #4
    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Even though I have occasionally pissed off the moderators, posted things that are politically incorrect, called prominent politicians out for the racist, classist elitist oligarchs that they are, and even suggested that certain "gun rights" organizations may actually be "controlled opposition", I'm still here after 3 years...

    Even though my testimony for MD HB-45 was one of the main motivators for Del. Alston to change her mind to our side, and she actually asked me to finish part of my presentation after the chairman had cut me off, and Del. Smigiel used my "MD LEO Bad Boys" list to drive home the point that citizens in MD are actually MORE trustworthy than LEOs with regards to carry, and a certain un-named MD gun rights group actually USED MY ADVICE and used a PIA request to get permit application info on ALL the legislators and threatened to discuss it during the testimonies--I am STILL "banned for life" from a certain other forum because I SUGGESTED exactly the sort of things that Del. Smigiel and MD Gun Rights organizations are now adopting as their official tactics.

    Thank you, OCDO, for providing a forum where truth is not suppressed, grudges are not kept, members who are actually ACTIVE workers FOR gun rights are appreciated, true research is recognized, and vindictive political machinations are not the rule of the day.

    OCDO is the only 2A-related forum I spend any time on, because it is so much better than ANY other forum I've ever visited. Our mods are usually pretty fair, the members are knowledgeable, and people keep things relatively civil and polite (compared to other 2A forums...)

    Keep up the GREAT work, guys!
    You asked me that day to put in a good word for you with "that other forum".

    I'd love to, and really enjoyed our chat in the hall (however brief)... but.......................

    No offense--cuz I really do consider you an ally... honest--but please, PLEASE quit poking bears in the eye!!!

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    How do you get a bear's attention? Sometimes by poking it.

    Now I don't care how you carry or if you carry so long as you don't infringe on my and others right/ability to carry.

    We do work pretty well together here, don't we.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: You all know why. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TAKE THE FEUD OFF THE FORUM!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spot77 View Post
    Dude, you are COMPLETELY wrong.........


    ....about Delegate Alston. She was already on our side. I spoke with her at least 3 years ago about ccw when she was campaigning I believe, and she was for it then. Said she had to handle the very vocal concerns of her constituents with "kid gloves" though..

    Funny thing about that--SHE told me in the hall during a break (when she was making copies of my testimony to hand out to the committee members) that my testimony and information was "very persuasive" and "got her thinking in a new direction on this issue".

    And she wasn't campaigning when she said it to me, and she knew that I wasn't even a MD resident.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  8. #8
    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: You all know why. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TAKE THE FEUD OFF THE FORUM!
    I missed the comment, but I'll assume it was directed at me. I'll also assume it was harsh enough that I'm glad to have missed it.

    To the Mods... I'm not a part of the "feud", but since I've been dragged back in (even though I feel Dreamer has points worth considering), I'll refrain from commenting further on the topic.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    I missed the comment, but I'll assume it was directed at me. I'll also assume it was harsh enough that I'm glad to have missed it.

    To the Mods... I'm not a part of the "feud", but since I've been dragged back in (even though I feel Dreamer has points worth considering), I'll refrain from commenting further on the topic.
    Actually it wasn't harsh at all. It was calm, truthful and just a point-by point accounting of events, and had nothing to do with you at all.

    I'll PM you the text if you like--I kept a copy because I knew it would be memory-holed...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  10. #10
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    That certain MD gun carry group you mentioned is none too receptive of external suggestions. Actually... it further illustrates the strange myopic culture pervasive in that little state. The entire 'shall issue' argument is still entirely dependant upon the state to permit the otherwise free exercise of a constitutionally enumerated right for a fee.

    The entire permit/license system imposed on the right to bear arms is unconstitutional at best... tyranny at worst. Yet... the culture of 'Mother-May-I?' prevails. This is what happens when people are subjugated for so long they assume it's normal.

    A right is not a privilege and should never be confused with such. The state cannot grant you the right to bear arms in defense of your own person... it can only restrict or deny it. You already have that right. Yet, you continue to plead relief for permission to do what is already an inalienable right.

    You don't want the chains completely removed... you'd just prefer them looser.
    Last edited by Sonora Rebel; 04-30-2012 at 03:16 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    They are starting to come around. I've been posting about OC as much as I can as it fits. MD is a series of baby steps. Its so far gone from CC talk to OC talk, with more acceptance of OC. When we finally get both, even though it comes with a gov permission slip, then the next step comes. However the next court ( 4th c), may decide that OC is not allowed to be toyed with by the gov, CC needs a permit/shall-issue. That would be landmark of course. Reverse the ban on OC w/out gov permission slip. Maybe Gura can slip something in about MD's history of WHY. Maybe open the eyes of the judges of the broader civil rights violations going on here. Of course the fed GFSZ crap would still be an issue...oh yeah, lets not forget why you can't carry when excersizing the 1A in MD. I am betting that rule stems from blacks being armed during the civil rights movement, or it could go all the way back to freed slaves. Drop strikers and unions in there too.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    oh yeah, lets not forget why you can't carry when excersizing the 1A in MD. I am betting that rule stems from blacks being armed during the civil rights movement, or it could go all the way back to freed slaves. Drop strikers and unions in there too.
    It goes back MUCH further than that...

    MD was the only state that was created out of a colony that was a British Royal land-grant to a single man in it's entirety. Maryland--in it's entirety--was the personal property of Cecelius Calvert, 2nd Baron Baltimore, the first Proprietor of Maryland.

    The Maryland State Government has never gotten past that idea--that the ENTIRETY of MD is their personal property and chattel--since 1632.

    The Jim Crow laws after the Civil War and the "gun control" laws put in place in 1972 as a response to the idea that Blacks would DARE to publicly arm themselves to defend their homes and families during the Baltimore Race Riots of 1968 were just icing on that already putrid little cupcake of corruption that we call Annapolis...

    "Gun Control" in MD is a textbook study of racism, classism, and oligarchical oppression of the Rights of the People.

    The Law-Abiding Citizens of Maryland are suffering from a 470-year-long case of BGOS--Battered Gun Owners Syndrome. They think that if they just act nice and play along, that their government will stop beating them, stealing their money, and lying to them at every available opportunity, and "next time" they will be treated with basic human dignity.

    They keep electing people like Brian Frosh and Babs Mikulsky, and then can't understand why they are the only state in the region that isn't "Shall Issue", and doesn't have unlicensed OC...

    WV. PA. VA. NC. OH. All are no-permit OC and all are Shall Issue.

    And ALL of them have crime rates that are substantially below the National Average.

    Meanwhile, MD is NO CARRY without a permit, and permits are "WWW" May Issue (Wealthy, White, and Well Connected). And MD's violent crime rates are 40% HIGHER than the national average. Baltimore's violent crime rate is over 300% higher than the National Average.

    Do the math.

    It's like Annapolis WANTS Maryland to be a crime-ridden den of iniquity with a disarmed, helpless, perpetually victimized populace...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-01-2012 at 02:29 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  13. #13
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    Hello, Peoples Republic of Maryland. NAVYBLUE here, retired NAVY(28) years, former 60 year resident of Pennsylvania, now retired and living in North Las Vegas, Nevada and poster on Nevada OCDO. Coming back east for the summer to sponge off kids(PA/MD) and MIL(CT) and visit grandchildren. I unfortunately have to spend (3) weeks visiting daughter in Ellicott City, MD(like the area, HATE the gun laws) and have to keep my S&W Model 442 38spcl locked in my fireproof box cause the P.R.O.M. don't allow no stinking OC.

    That being said, this post was the first I read. So who is this bogey man site Dreamer talks about that shall not be named. See in Nevada OCDO, we put out our dirty laundry right out there on the street. NO organization gets veiled references. We call them out. I know you guys are a little oppressed here(LOL), but who are we talking about.

    On another note, my LIBERAL college professor SIL needs MACE to protect himself and family from a nut case neighbor as he wouldn't dare own a evil GUN. Any suggestions of where he can pick up MACE in Howard County.

    If you ever get a hankering to live free, come to Nevada where the old west lives on. A man's word is his bond, you help your neighbor, you defend your property and the government is not your friend.

    NAVYBLUE

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE View Post
    On another note, my LIBERAL college professor SIL needs MACE to protect himself and family from a nut case neighbor as he wouldn't dare own a evil GUN. Any suggestions of where he can pick up MACE in Howard County.

    No idea where he could get mace or pepper spray here in HoCo. Try "On Target" in Severn MD. They are a gun store/indoor range and they sell a lot of accessories. I'm pretty sure they carry a few different brands and sizes of pepper spray.

    http://www.ontarget.biz/

    But let your SIL know that it is illegal in MD to carry pepper spray or mace if it is "concealed". So he can carry it, but it can't be in his pocket, or his briefcase, or in his coat.

    Maryland sucks in ways that people in truly free states can't even fathom...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  15. #15
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post

    But let your SIL know that it is illegal in MD to carry pepper spray or mace if it is "concealed". So he can carry it, but it can't be in his pocket, or his briefcase, or in his coat.
    Doesn't the code say it is ok to conceal, not open carry it?

    From Code


    Maryland Criminal Law Section 4-101


    Article - Criminal Law




    § 4-101. (a) (1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.

    (2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length.

    (3) (i) "Pepper mace" means an aerosol propelled combination of highly disabling irritant pepper-based products.

    (ii) "Pepper mace" is also known as oleoresin capsicum (o.c.) spray.

    (4) "Star knife" means a device used as a throwing weapon, consisting of several sharp or pointed blades arrayed as radially disposed arms about a central disk.

    (5) (i) "Weapon" includes a dirk knife, bowie knife, switchblade knife, star knife, sandclub, metal knuckles, razor, and nunchaku.

    (ii) "Weapon" does not include:

    1. a handgun; or

    2. a penknife without a switchblade.

    (b) This section does not prohibit the following individuals from carrying a weapon:

    (1) an officer of the State, or of any county or municipal corporation of the State, who is entitled or required to carry the weapon as part of the officer's official equipment, or by any conservator of the peace, who is entitled or required to carry the weapon as part of the conservator's official equipment, or by any officer or conservator of the peace of another state who is temporarily in this State;

    (2) a special agent of a railroad;

    (3) a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article; or

    (4) an individual who carries the weapon as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger, subject to the right of the court in an action arising under this section to judge the reasonableness of the carrying of the weapon, and the proper occasion for carrying it, under the evidence in the case.

    (c) (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.

    (2) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner.


    (3) (i) This paragraph applies in Anne Arundel County, Baltimore County, Caroline County, Cecil County, Harford County, Kent County, Montgomery County, Prince George's County, St. Mary's County, Talbot County, Washington County, and Worcester County.


    (ii) A minor may not carry a dangerous weapon between 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour before sunrise, whether concealed or not, except while:

    1. on a bona fide hunting trip; or

    2. engaged in or on the way to or returning from a bona fide trap shoot, sport shooting event, or any organized civic or military activity.

    (d) (1) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $1,000 or both.

    (2) For a person convicted under subsection (c)(1) or (2) of this section, if it appears from the evidence that the weapon was carried, concealed or openly, with the deliberate purpose of injuring or killing another, the court shall impose the highest sentence of imprisonment prescribed.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-22-2012 at 08:45 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Doesn't the code say it is ok to conceal, not open carry it?

    It says you may not wear or carry it openly if you have the "intent to use it in an unlawful manner".

    Deploying pepper spray in self-defense against a violent attack is, under MD law, the ONLY lawful use for it for a citizen. Since pepper spray is not a licensed weapon under MD law, OC of it for self-defense would be 100% legal, as there is:

    1) no STATE law prohibiting OC of ANY weapon (including handguns, if you have a permit to carry), and
    2) no prohibition against using pepper spray for lawful self-defense--which under MD law is the ONLY justifiable reason to use ANY level of force against another person for a citizen.

    So unless you were deploying the pepper spray for some illegal purpose (while committing a crime, like robbery or assault) or to defend property, OCing of it would be legal, and in fact the ONLY legal way to carry it, for lawful purposes.

    The statute you bolded is defining a CRIME OF INTENT--and if the intent of the person carrying it is NOT unlawful, they cannot meet the stipulations of this statute, and therefore cannot be prosecuted under this code...

    If you look at the previous line you will see that, in fact, carrying a "dangerous weapon" in Maryland in a concealed manner is expressly prohibited:

    (c) (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.
    Check yourself, before you wreck yourself...

    Of course, we all know how LE and the courts in MD REALLY work, and the actual WORDING of the statutes are essentially meaningless if they want to "make an example of you". People get arrested, beaten, convicted and imprisoned in MD all the time for actually NOT breaking the law. Functioning within the letter of the law in MD is no guarantee that you won't be arrested and prosecuted for "contempt of cop" or worse yet, "Contempt of the Oligarchy". And mounting an effective display of self-defense in MD is perhaps the ULTIMATE "contempt" that a citizen can show for TPTB.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  17. #17
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    So where does it say that concealed is illegal? It only mentions open carry .I read this to allow either if your intent is for self defense.

    I don't see OC spray defined as a weapon in the statute.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-23-2012 at 06:04 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    So where does it say that concealed is illegal? It only mentions open carry .I read this to allow either if your intent is for self defense.

    I don't see OC spray defined as a weapon in the statute.

    You apparently missed the "Definitions of Dangerous Weapons" section at the beginning of the statute, where OC is clearly defined as being in this category...


    2010 Maryland Code
    CRIMINAL LAW
    TITLE 4 - WEAPON CRIMES
    Subtitle 1 - General Provisions
    Section 4-101 - Dangerous weapons.

    § 4-101. Dangerous weapons.

    (a) Definitions.-
    (1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.
    (2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length.
    (3) (i) "Pepper mace" means an aerosol propelled combination of highly disabling irritant pepper-based products.
    (ii) "Pepper mace" is also known as oleoresin capsicum (o.c.) spray.
    And unlike Handguns and Penknives, OC spray is NOT excluded or exempted from the classification of a "Dangerous Weapon".

    If it is defined as being in the category and not later exempted under special circumstances, it IS in the category--that's generally how the law works...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-23-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  19. #19
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Got it.

  20. #20
    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    There is yet another OC debate going on at that particular MD forum...

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    There is yet another OC debate going on at that particular MD forum...
    It is believed that widespread California-style OC will result in negative consequences from the legislature in the form of a concealed carry requirement as well as other & more terrible laws for gun owners.

    The best case scenario (though terrible still) is that an order will come down the chain of command from the MSP Superintendent to restrict the licenses to concealed only for personal protection applicants. If you look at Gura's stay request response yesterday to the 4th circuit, this was discussed as an option.

    We lose OC due to lack of prudence in the next year, we lose it in MD for a generation.

    In Washington state, it took us almost two years in rural & suburban areas before we were able to acclimatize the populace to OC in downtown Seattle. It may take a bit longer in Maryland because no state RKBA & no carrying culture there.

  22. #22
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Could the ca 4th say "good and substantial" stands and that Md must allow unlicensed OC? That would of course be too good to be true. If it did, I think the Md legislature would pass a shall issue law in the next session so people will hide their scary guns.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  23. #23
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    No, the original case only addressed G & S, nothing else. That's all the court is being asked to consider. Can the GA enact other carry legislation? Absolutley. We wait yet again

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