Police Officer Fires Gun In Wal-Mart Parking Lot

peter nap · Apr 23, 2012

Blk97F150 said:
Good questions.... unfortunately I don't know the answers. Maybe after they respond to my FOIA regarding department policy I'll ask them your questions too.

Edit: Btw, I haven't kept current with your situation.... but I hope thats all working out for the best for you.

You're probably not going to get the policy BLK. They usually use the Security exemption. I'm going to try FOIA'ing the index pages sometime.

Blk97F150 · Apr 23, 2012

peter nap said:
You're probably not going to get the policy BLK. They usually use the Security exemption. I'm going to try FOIA'ing the index pages sometime.

I know. Truthfully I don't expect them to give it to me, I fully expect excuses and 'run around'..... but I wanted to ask anyway, and make them wonder 'who is this guy and why does he want this information?'.... LOL!

Although, the Culpeper police department did release their deadly force policy after the Patricia Cook shooting (not to me.. but a news organization got a hold of it)... so all hope isn't lost.

paramedic · Apr 23, 2012

What surprises me is that they have a Walmart in Russell county. That's truly Gods Country![/QUOTE]

Believe it or not, ther is one in Buchanan County too.

Citizen · Apr 23, 2012

Blk97F150 said:
Don't know.... but I just sent them a FOIA request on what their official policy is regarding officers discharging a weapon. :uhoh:

Please do post the reply(ies), including any evasions or violations of the FOI statute.

Discharging a handgun like that is lethal force. One might initially think that discharging at a tire is not lethal force, but what if the shot missed and ricocheted into a shopper or someone sitting in a car? People have been killed by such ricochets.

Unless an exception from Tennessee vs Garner applied--for example a fleeing felon dangerous to the community--then I can see no justification for shooting a tire. And, the same logic about warning shots can be applied: if the driver was a fleeing felon dangerous to the community, why was the cop taking a chance shooting a tire instead of shooting the driver? A felon who could escape up the road, jump out on foot, and run into a house to seize a hostage, etc.?

Love the stories about the wind in Kentucky and the 15 minutes head start.

ryan7068 · Apr 23, 2012

My two cents!

First off, the facts of the incident are without any real detail. If the person wasn't being detained in anyway, he would have been well within his rights to drive off.

Secondly,what exactly was this man suspect of? (Being dead and slouched over in a car? sounds dangerous!) If he was truely was about to be detained for whatever reason, I would have little problem with a police officer exercising descretion with shooting his tires to prevent a life endangering pursuit.(This may be assuming too much on my part, but as long as there is no innocent bystanders(not likely in a walmart parking lot) I think its a good move.) Again, not likely in this case.

The officer better of had something on him other than, " I was trying to talk to him, and he just drove off."

Blk97F150 · Apr 24, 2012

ryan7068 said:
First off, the facts of the incident are without any real detail. If the person wasn't being detained in anyway, he would have been well within his rights to drive off.

Secondly,what exactly was this man suspect of? (Being dead and slouched over in a car? sounds dangerous!) If he was truely was about to be detained for whatever reason, I would have little problem with a police officer exercising descretion with shooting his tires to prevent a life endangering pursuit.(This may be assuming too much on my part, but as long as there is no innocent bystanders(not likely in a walmart parking lot) I think its a good move.) Again, not likely in this case.

The officer better of had something on him other than, " I was trying to talk to him, and he just drove off."

Just to clairify.... you are saying that as long as an officer had a reason to detain... any reason.... you would be ok with the cop shooting at the vehicle/tires if the person drove off??

Grapeshot · Apr 24, 2012

Then there is this 82 year old former Miss America who shoots out tires so they cannot leave.

http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41217/

thaJack · Apr 24, 2012

Blk97F150 said:
Just to clairify.... you are saying that as long as an officer had a reason to detain... any reason.... you would be ok with the cop shooting at the vehicle/tires if the person drove off??

The courts have ruled that if you are pulled over for ANY traffic violation then that is reasonable suspicion to detain you.

Grapeshot · Apr 24, 2012

Originally Posted by Blk97F150

Just to clairify.... you are saying that as long as an officer had a reason to detain... any reason.... you would be ok with the cop shooting at the vehicle/tires if the person drove off??

thaJack said:
The courts have ruled that if you are pulled over for ANY traffic violation then that is reasonable suspicion to detain you.

Which begs the question, when is use of deadly force authorized and reasonable.

Surely not as implied by not providing a direct response - for any traffic violation.

Blk97F150 · Apr 24, 2012

thaJack said:
The courts have ruled that if you are pulled over for ANY traffic violation then that is reasonable suspicion to detain you.

Yep. Understand.

I'm just trying to clairify a comment made by another poster. They stated that "If he was truely was about to be detained for whatever reason, I would have little problem with a police officer exercising descretion with shooting his tires "

Blk97F150 · Apr 24, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Which begs the question, when is use of deadly force authorized and reasonable.

Surely not as implied by not providing a direct response - for any traffic violation.

Hopefully my FOIA request will answer that question.... for the Lebanon VA Police Department at least.

Citizen · Apr 25, 2012

thaJack said:
The courts have ruled that if you are pulled over for ANY traffic violation then that is reasonable suspicion to detain you.

Cite, please.

thaJack · Apr 25, 2012

Citizen said:
Cite, please.

Sorry...

In conducting a traffic stop, the police must “have probable cause to believe that a traffic violation has occurred,” Whren v. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 810, 116 S.Ct. 1769, 135 L.Ed.2d 89 (1996), or “a reasonable suspicion supported by articulable facts that criminal activity may be afoot.” United States v. Sokolow, 490 U.S. 1, 7, 109 S.Ct. 1581, 104 L.Ed.2d 1 (1989)

United States v. Ellington, 396 F. Supp. 2d 695, 699 (E.D. Va. 2005)

I'm sure there are many others... this is just the first one I could find when you asked for the cite. Essentially, the traffic stop is only lawful if the officer has reasonable suspicion or probable cause to conduct it. Thus, they have the right to detain you under Terry v. Ohio.

If they want to extend the scope of that seizure beyond what is necessary to issue a traffic citation, though, they would need additional probable cause or suspicion.

Observing a traffic violation provides sufficient justification for a police officer to detain the offending vehicle for as long as it takes to perform the traditional incidents of a routine traffic stop. See, e.g., Caballes, 543 U.S. at 407, 125 S.Ct. 834; Whren, 517 U.S. at 810, 116 S.Ct. 1769; United States v. Foreman, 369 F.3d 776, 781 (4th Cir.2004).

United States v. Branch, 537 F.3d 328, 335 (4th Cir. 2008)

If a police officer wants to detain a driver beyond the scope of a routine traffic stop, however, he must possess a justification for doing so other than the initial traffic violation that prompted the stop in the first place. See Royer, 460 U.S. at 500, 103 S.Ct. 1319. Thus, a prolonged automobile stop requires either the driver's consent or a “reasonable suspicion” that illegal activity is afoot. See Foreman, 369 F.3d at 781; see also Royer, 460 U.S. at 500–01, 103 S.Ct. 1319; 4 Wayne R. LaFave, Search and Seizure § 9.3(f), at 399.

United States v. Branch, 537 F.3d 328, 336 (4th Cir. 2008)

wylde007 · Apr 25, 2012

I would argue that if you are pulled over for a traffic violation you have already been detained.

Respectfully, nothing in the cites provided go any further than to reiterate what most of us already know: flashing blue lights, stop, detain, ID-on-demand, citation, release.

It is during the detention phase of the encounter that the officer is doing their "investigation" and not only will your digital record be available to them, but your mannerisms and body language can key them in to other potential mischief.

But a traffic stop IS probable cause to detain - that's inarguable.

thaJack · Apr 25, 2012

wylde007 said:
I would argue that if you are pulled over for a traffic violation you have already been detained.

Yes. What I was getting at was that they had to have reasonable suspicion to pull you over in the first place. If you weren't being detained, you'd wait for the officer to get to your window, and you'd ask "Am I free to leave?" and he'd say "yes."

wylde007 said:
Respectfully, nothing in the cites provided go any further than to reiterate what most of us already know: flashing blue lights, stop, detain, ID-on-demand, citation, release....

...But a traffic stop IS probable cause to detain - that's inarguable.

Yep, but that's what I was asked for a cite for.

paramedic70002 · Apr 25, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Immigrants = persons whose local linage and cabin does not go back at least 75 years. Others are usually gone before sunset the first day.

Around here, the rule is you must have at least one grandparent buried in a local cemetery. Reinterments don't count.

ryan7068 · Apr 25, 2012

Clarification

Blk97F150 said:
Just to clairify.... you are saying that as long as an officer had a reason to detain... any reason.... you would be ok with the cop shooting at the vehicle/tires if the person drove off??

Ultimately, I feel that if the police officer has a legal reson to detain him (including giving him a citation) and he drives off during that detention, he is showing a lack of regard for human life. Shooting his tire, if it didn't pose a threat by someone being nearby is justified IMHO. It doesn't matter the reason for his detention, as long as it is legaly supported. Him driving off will turn into a pursuit which can endanger lives. If the police officer just let him go, that would set a bad precedent that anytime someone gets pulled over or detained they could just drive/walk off.

**Next time I get pulled over I might try it

Blk97F150 · Apr 25, 2012

ryan7068 said:
Ultimately, I feel that if the police officer has a legal reson to detain him (including giving him a citation) and he drives off during that detention, he is showing a lack of regard for human life. Shooting his tire, if it didn't pose a threat by someone being nearby is justified IMHO. It doesn't matter the reason for his detention, as long as it is legaly supported. Him driving off will turn into a pursuit which can endanger lives. If the police officer just let him go, that would set a bad precedent that anytime someone gets pulled over or detained they could just drive/walk off.

**Next time I get pulled over I might try it

Wow.

Thankfully, that decision does not rest with you....

Grapeshot · Apr 25, 2012

ryan7068 said:
Ultimately, I feel that if the police officer has a legal reson to detain him (including giving him a citation) and he drives off during that detention, he is showing a lack of regard for human life. Shooting his tire, if it didn't pose a threat by someone being nearby is justified IMHO. It doesn't matter the reason for his detention, as long as it is legaly supported. Him driving off will turn into a pursuit which can endanger lives. If the police officer just let him go, that would set a bad precedent that anytime someone gets pulled over or detained they could just drive/walk off.

**Next time I get pulled over I might try it

Shooting at a tire would still seem to constitute use of deadly force.

Such force may be authorized in some situations to stop a fleeing felon.

Where do you find such authorization/cite to stop someone for a misdemeanor?

ryan7068 · Apr 25, 2012

It was an opinion.

Sorry I didn't clarify. That was an opinion and has no legal backing that I know of. I have no idea what police policy is in that situation, and as I said it depends on the reason. And while it may very well constitute using deadly force, the person is endangerine others by evading the police. IMHO

And would you like to clarify Blk as to why you're glad the decision doesn't rest with me?

Police Officer Fires Gun In Wal-Mart Parking Lot

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member