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Thread: Roanoke County’s preempted parks ordinance is prompting calls for legal action

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Roanoke County’s preempted parks ordinance is prompting calls for legal action

    Well that clears it right up doesn’t it? After that change, any citizen could easily read that ordinance and understand that it is now perfectly legal to carry in County parks. Of course not! And the same is true of a law enforcement officer or a magistrate who is perhaps unfamiliar with the history of the ordinance and the scope of Virginia’s preemption statute. Sooner or later, someone is going to be deprived of their liberty because of this ordinance.

    Exceprt ... Read more

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Sooo I am reporting both, Admistrator and Ryon7068 to the Super Moderator!!
    Posting the same stuff in multiple threads is concidered SPAM!!!
    Why are you doing this?
    It is a bother to read this stuff twice..
    You are being warned...
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    very well good sir

    I am completley on board with that my good man, just forgot to remove all good to go now! Have a wonderful evening.
    Last edited by ryan7068; 04-24-2012 at 12:17 AM.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Sooo I am reporting both, Admistrator and Ryon7068 to the Super Moderator!!
    Posting the same stuff in multiple threads is concidered SPAM!!!
    Why are you doing this?
    It is a bother to read this stuff twice..
    You are being warned...
    If you'd follow the links in each one you would see that they go to TWO different articles. Same subject, yes, but two different articles. I wouldn't consider it SPAM, but just my opinion.

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    <<< raises hand volunteering to be plaintiff.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    wait, what, huh? oh no!

    Quote Originally Posted by thaJack View Post
    If you'd follow the links in each one you would see that they go to TWO different articles. Same subject, yes, but two different articles. I wouldn't consider it SPAM, but just my opinion.
    my appology is now retracted...
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 04-24-2012 at 09:04 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  7. #7
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by thaJack View Post
    If you'd follow the links in each one you would see that they go to TWO different articles. Same subject, yes, but two different articles. I wouldn't consider it SPAM, but just my opinion.
    confussion abounds whn i stay up all night.
    I stand by my original charge of spam.
    Both articals are in the original thread!
    this thread is just a repost of the follow up artical, I just haddent read them both, so still my bad.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Having this ordinance left on the books, no matter how they write it, makes me believe that it will, at the very least, confuse carriers who are trying to follow the law and, at worst, end up causing major problems for a legal OC or CCer who gets hassled by cops who don't understand anything about the law. On reading this code, I was immediately reminded of what happened to CHP holder (VCDL member?) in, I believe, Lynchburg (or was it Roanoke?) a few years ago. As I recall, in the course of a traffic stop the CHP holder went through quite an ordeal with the local police, as they repeatedly demanded to know if he was carrying, even though he was under no legal obligation to tell them. The local police continued to repeat a local ordinance that required notification of carry, but the ordinance was preempted and had not been removed from the books. I see the exact same thing happening here, if this ordinance isn't completely struck down.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    Having this ordinance left on the books, no matter how they write it, makes me believe that it will, at the very least, confuse carriers who are trying to follow the law and, at worst, end up causing major problems for a legal OC or CCer who gets hassled by cops who don't understand anything about the law. On reading this code, I was immediately reminded of what happened to CHP holder (VCDL member?) in, I believe, Lynchburg (or was it Roanoke?) a few years ago. As I recall, in the course of a traffic stop the CHP holder went through quite an ordeal with the local police, as they repeatedly demanded to know if he was carrying, even though he was under no legal obligation to tell them. The local police continued to repeat a local ordinance that required notification of carry, but the ordinance was preempted and had not been removed from the books. I see the exact same thing happening here, if this ordinance isn't completely struck down.
    That is exactly the harm that this kind of ordinance will likely cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    Having this ordinance left on the books, no matter how they write it, makes me believe that it will, at the very least, confuse carriers who are trying to follow the law and, at worst, end up causing major problems for a legal OC or CCer who gets hassled by cops who don't understand anything about the law. On reading this code, I was immediately reminded of what happened to CHP holder (VCDL member?) in, I believe, Lynchburg (or was it Roanoke?) a few years ago. As I recall, in the course of a traffic stop the CHP holder went through quite an ordeal with the local police, as they repeatedly demanded to know if he was carrying, even though he was under no legal obligation to tell them. The local police continued to repeat a local ordinance that required notification of carry, but the ordinance was preempted and had not been removed from the books. I see the exact same thing happening here, if this ordinance isn't completely struck down.
    That was a gentleman down in Roanoke who has had multiple issues with the Roanoke County or City police. I think he may have been tossed out of a Roanoke County park at one point based upon this code section, but I'd have to go back and find the thread. I can't recall his handle here, but I know his real name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    That was a gentleman down in Roanoke who has had multiple issues with the Roanoke County or City police. I think he may have been tossed out of a Roanoke County park at one point based upon this code section, but I'd have to go back and find the thread. I can't recall his handle here, but I know his real name.
    I believe his screen name was tosta dogen or dojan.....something like that Jmelvin.

    The dashcam footage was here, but it looks like he removed it:

    http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...thkey=CNy79osJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I believe his screen name was tosta dogen or dojan.....something like that Jmelvin.

    The dashcam footage was here, but it looks like he removed it:

    http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...thkey=CNy79osJ
    Tosta Dojen was it! He and his wife set up the first and only Roanoke OC meal that I'm aware of. He fought his road-side battle to the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals and lost. Of course they gave wide lattitude to the officer and he lost his 1983 claim.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-24-2012 at 12:00 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Tosta Dojen was it! He and his wife set up the first and only Roanoke OC meal that I'm aware of. He fought his road-side battle to the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals and lost. Of course they gave wide lattitude to the officer and he lost his 1983 claim.
    Lots more to his losing and without getting into it, a good reason why VCDL needs to exercise more care about getting advice from lawyers with baggage.

    This is the case I often quote where TJ says he chooses to remain silent. The cop says you only have the right to remain silent if you've committed a crime, have you committed a crime.
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-24-2012 at 12:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    On reading this code, I was immediately reminded of what happened to CHP holder (VCDL member?) in, I believe, Lynchburg (or was it Roanoke?) a few years ago. As I recall, in the course of a traffic stop the CHP holder went through quite an ordeal with the local police, as they repeatedly demanded to know if he was carrying, even though he was under no legal obligation to tell them. The local police continued to repeat a local ordinance that required notification of carry, but the ordinance was preempted and had not been removed from the books. I see the exact same thing happening here, if this ordinance isn't completely struck down.
    That isn't quite correct. There was no ordinance, preempted or otherwise, and the officers didn't cite to anything other than "the law." Which is not to say that your main point is invalid -- I can easily see officers enforcing an invalid law and getting away with it. In Amore v. Novarro, the 2nd Circuit awarded qualified immunity to a police officer who enforced a law that had been declared unconstitutional decades earlier. The Court reasoned that even if the law was invalid, it was still on the books, and a police officer couldn't reasonably be expected to know that it was void and unenforceable.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    That was a gentleman down in Roanoke who has had multiple issues with the Roanoke County or City police. I think he may have been tossed out of a Roanoke County park at one point based upon this code section, but I'd have to go back and find the thread.
    Only Roanoke City and Salem. I haven't yet been thrown out of a park in Roanoke County. But I was just thinking that an open carry hotdog & hamburger grill would be a good idea, so I guess we'll see.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The dashcam footage was here, but it looks like he removed it:

    http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...thkey=CNy79osJ
    Google Docs is being weird. Try this link instead: http://docs.google.com/open?id=0B61j...VkOWM2NTYzZmE5
    Last edited by Tosta Dojen; 04-24-2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: fixed broken link

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    Anyone know the driver's name in the video? I've seen the case files, but can't seem to locate it again.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thaJack View Post
    Anyone know the driver's name in the video? I've seen the case files, but can't seem to locate it again.
    I do but don't think he wants it pastedall over the net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I do but don't think he wants it pastedall over the net.
    No worries. The document I pull up wouldn't have his name redacted already or anything. If I remember right they said that it all fell within the qualified immunity of the cops.

    When you don't know the law, ignorance is not an excuse. When they don't know it, it's qualified immunity. Go figure.

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    By the way, the video is really funny. It's like the police officers have never even heard of the Fifth Amendment.

    At about 46:40 the cop says he is a bit low on tickets... makes you wonder about that quota they claim not to have.
    Last edited by thaJack; 04-24-2012 at 01:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thaJack View Post
    At about 46:40 the cop says he is a bit low on tickets... makes you wonder about that quota they claim not to have.
    I remember having that exact same thought way back when I first viewed that recording. I also remember a sense of total outrage just building in me as the audio went on, because the cops had little to no respect for the citizen, and because they took forever trying to find anything at all that they could charge him with, because they were so sure that he must have been guilty of something. Everything about the case seemed to fly in the face of innocent until proven guilty, protect and serve, and the general ideals of a free state.

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    "He's guilty of something, we just don't know what."

    Love it!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosta Dojen View Post
    I can easily see officers enforcing an invalid law and getting away with it. In Amore v. Novarro, the 2nd Circuit awarded qualified immunity to a police officer who enforced a law that had been declared unconstitutional decades earlier. The Court reasoned that even if the law was invalid, it was still on the books, and a police officer couldn't reasonably be expected to know that it was void and unenforceable.
    This (bold above) is the simplest and most important reason for us to strive to get every preempted ordinance off the books of every locality in the state of Virginia.

    If it's on the books, it's enforceable, as this case clearly shows us.


    In regard to Roanoke County, it's quite simple. 15.2-915 does not say it's OK to enact an ordinance as long as it agrees with state law. State law specifically prohibits them from enacting any ordinance at all, unless specifically allowed by another section of the state code.

    Some specific points:

    For example, Section 15.2-1209.1 specifically grants localities the power to enact a local ordinance concerning the carry of firearms:

    "The governing body of any county is hereby empowered to adopt ordinances making it unlawful for any person to carry or have in his possession, for the purpose of hunting, while on any part of a public highway within such county a loaded firearm when such person is..."

    That is what 15.2-915 means when it says "other than those expressly authorized by statute."

    We need to demand from Roanoke County not "our code is in line with state code," but "here is the specific section of state code that allows us to write this ordinance." Just as the example above specifically says, "is hereby empowered to ...."

    Additionally, there are probably at least dozens, if not many more localities which still have on their books, "mirror ordinances" for concealed carry. Just like any other local ordinance on carrying firearms, state law does not grant localities the power to enact an ordinance for concealed carry, even one that does not differ from the state law. We should be working to have each and every one of these removed as well.

    I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I felt it was important to remind us all where the true battle lies here.

    TFred

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