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Thread: Ask a Cop - Advice on Active Shooters -

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Ask a Cop - Advice on Active Shooters -

    Ask-A-Cop is a weekly feature on a Utah TV station website and today's article dealt with active shooters. The local LEOs teach the Dave Grossman approach to survival and make some good self-defense points' whether you are armed or unarmed.

    The trolly square incident referred to is one that took place several years ago in Salt Lake City, UT. A shooter walked into a mall in a very liberal neighborhood and began shooting people. Ken Hammond, an armed citizen with a Utah CFP engaged the shooter with his handgun until police arrived and overwhelmed him. Police credit Mr. Hammond with saving an unknown number of victims by keeping he shooter engaged with him in an active gunfight.

    Link: http://www.ksl.com/?sid=20036990&nid...cid=featured-5

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    One thing the public at large is ignorant of is how cops are now being trained to deal with the active shooter.

    The "active shooter" is actually a recent phenomenon (recent meaning in the last 20 years or so). In the past people like that would shoot and run or shoot and take hostages and the first officer to arrive on scene would secure the perimeter and wait for the swat team to equip and show up and so on.

    Now these shooters are shooting so as to kill as many as they can. Modern training dictates the first officer(s) on the scene not hesitate and grab their shotgun/AR15 and go in and hunt the sob down. No more "freeze police", it's find them and shoot them, in the back if need be.

    I'm not kidding, I've been trained with this in in-service for the past 15+ years now. I truly believe if the media knew what's now being trained they'd go ape feces!!! But it's the right thing to do.

    And armed civilians may need to do the same. An active shooter in a public place is there to shoot as many people as possible and the only thing that will stop them is another bullet. By the time any law enforcement or armed security (yeah, right! ) show up, dozens of people could be injured or dead.

    Don't be rash but do take calculated risks. If you can, take the shot. An active shooter is like the Terminator. It can't be reasoned with, it doesn't give a schmit, and it knows nothing of mercy or remorse. And it will not stop...EVER! Until it is out of bullets or it is dead. Make the latter one the cause of it's cessation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Ask-A-Cop is a weekly feature on a Utah TV station website and today's article dealt with active shooters. The local LEOs teach the Dave Grossman approach to survival and make some good self-defense points' whether you are armed or unarmed.

    The trolly square incident referred to is one that took place several years ago in Salt Lake City, UT. A shooter walked into a mall in a very liberal neighborhood and began shooting people. Ken Hammond, an armed citizen with a Utah CFP engaged the shooter with his handgun until police arrived and overwhelmed him. Police credit Mr. Hammond with saving an unknown number of victims by keeping he shooter engaged with him in an active gunfight.

    Link: http://www.ksl.com/?sid=20036990&nid...cid=featured-5

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    Actually, Mr. Hammond was an off duty Ogden officer having dinner with his dispatcher wife. He has since lost his peace officer certification due to some other issues. Still does not lessen his involvement in the outcome of this incident.
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  4. #4
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    while seeing liberals being shot at would distress me, i would tend to seek payment for engaging any suspect attacking someone other than me, and expect payment up front lest i dont survive. i'm funny that way.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    "It is hard for a shooter to aim when he’s ducking."
    :chuckle:

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites
    One thing the public at large is ignorant of is how cops are now being trained to deal with the active shooter.
    ... I truly believe if the media knew what's now being trained they'd go ape feces!!! But it's the right thing to do.
    Do you think that if the policy were publicized, would mass shooters just work faster or might they actually be deterred? I lean toward the former.

    An active shooter in a public place is there to shoot as many people as possible and the only thing that will stop them is another bullet. By the time any law enforcement or armed security (yeah, right! ) show up, dozens of people could be injured or dead.
    [sarcasm]
    You mean W"AV"E is wrong? No, say it isn't so!
    They tell us to go along with whatever the criminal wants & we won't be hurt.
    They tell us that having more bullets flying around will only make the situation worse.
    They tell us that vigilante cowboys won't be able to hit the criminal & will kill innocent bystanders.
    They tell us that people with guns will be shot by police because you [generic LEO] aren't smart enough to tell a threat from a good citizen.
    [/sarcasm]
    Last edited by MKEgal; 04-25-2012 at 11:33 AM.

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    Oh it's not that the media doesn't know about the current tactical approach to "active shooter" situations. They know, it's been covered on TV, both locally and nationally, a number of times I've seen over the years. It's just that it isn't that sensational and doesn't help with their overall bias against guns in the hands non-LEO personnel. In fact it speaks against their bias because it suggests that the quicker there are good guys with guns (LEO or non-LEO) on the scene, the better.
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    There's even a wiki article about it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immedia...pid_Deployment
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Being there in seconds then minutes is the key. Most active shootings take place over a very short time period and ends when the suspect killing himself then being killed.

    Having armed respones works much better if the armed responders are on scene any delay results in more people shot.

    Being able to stop ,slow down the shooter/shooters and interrupt their plans at the begaining greatly reduce the victims.

    Having responsible armed citizens/teachers/LEOs able to intervene shortly will reduce the numbers of victims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    They tell us that vigilante cowboys won't be able to hit the criminal & will kill innocent bystanders.
    This falls under the "greater danger" theory in that it's more dangerous not to act than it is to act.

    scenario one:
    Bad guy goes into a mall and starts shooting. Already killed 3 people when an armed customer shoots back. Armed customer hits another shopper before hitting bad guy. Score: 4 innocents dead,1 bad guy dead.

    Scenario two:
    Bad guy goes into a mall and starts shooting. Nobody shoots back until police arrive 7 minutes later and kill him. Score: 1 bad guy dead, 40+ innocent shoppers dead.

    Yes in #1 the armed customer hit an innocent. But if no one attempted to stop the BG a lot more would have ended up dead. It's more dangerous not to act than to act!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    This falls under the "greater danger" theory in that it's more dangerous not to act than it is to act.

    scenario one:
    Bad guy goes into a mall and starts shooting. Already killed 3 people when an armed customer shoots back. Armed customer hits another shopper before hitting bad guy. Score: 4 innocents dead,1 bad guy dead.

    Scenario two:
    Bad guy goes into a mall and starts shooting. Nobody shoots back until police arrive 7 minutes later and kill him. Score: 1 bad guy dead, 40+ innocent shoppers dead.

    Yes in #1 the armed customer hit an innocent. But if no one attempted to stop the BG a lot more would have ended up dead. It's more dangerous not to act than to act!
    Very good presentation of two choices, and two outcomes.

    Fortunately, it has been proven, that Americans are capable of making those kinds of tradeoffs, and accepting the results. Unfortunately, there is a tragic learning curve, unless you have already accepted that you may be in that type of a situation. We are not talking about chasing a robber thru a mall, in this example, but rather dealing with someone attempting a mass murder.

    -------

    On September 11, 2001 the worst incidents of mass murder in the United States took place. By the time two planes had flown into the Twin Towers, and flight 77 hit the Pentagon, the people on flight 93, realized that they were in a new type of event, not simply a hijacking going to Cuba/whatever or a Hostages for money/notoriety/exchange situation. It was a mass murder of all the people in the plane plus whoever they could kill on the ground when the plane crashed. The passengers and crew, changed their tactics, realizing actual human lives would have to be sacrificed short-term to reduce the amount of casualties long-term. They did have a hope of preventing the crash, but many feel that the action would have been taken, even if they were certain all the people on the plane were going to die.

    It went down in a field in Western Pennsylvania, wih no casualties on the ground. I'm certain that the decision to rush the cabin and try to regain control of the plane, or force it down NOW, was not unanimous, but those who have studied what we know of that situation, are universal in agreeing it was the right thing to do.

    Opposing a heavily armed foe whose goal is to kill as many as possible, is a warlike situation. It demands aggressive immediate action, and is likely to have direct and collateral losses of innocents, especially when those innocent third parties are overmatched in their ability/resources to defend themselves. The use of human shields makes this situation even more difficult. A win/win outcome is very unlikely.

    You may need to engage to the death, to stop the losses. People who do this in wartime are called heroes. Of the few living heroes, most of them give credit, to those comrades who died in the process, and made it possible for the hero to survive.

    I wish i could express this better, hopefully you understand.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 04-26-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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    This thread made me think of the demise of Bonnie and Clyde for some reason.

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