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Thread: OC Everett Mall Response to Complaint

  1. #1
    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    OC Everett Mall Response to Complaint

    Will,

    I would like to talk with you about your comment card that I received in regards to the open carry at the mall. Please let me know when would be a good time to call you to discuss.

    Thank you,

    AJ Werfelmann
    Assistant General Manager
    Everett Mall

    A brief backdrop to what led to this; I went to the mall with my wife and when I was in the dressing room two mall security guards asked me to leave because I was OCing. They gave me the option to put it in my car, which is what I ended up doing. I didn't ask for the policy. A few days later, after trying to find it on the website, I went to the information desk and specifically asked for the rules. I was given nothing but some pitiful mumbo-jumbo about interpretation of the code of conduct. I asked if there were any other lawful acts I should refrain from to be accepted in the mall. So the security guard just walked off. From the sounds of it The AGM wants to call and speak so perhaps I'll record it or I'll try to keep it going through email to keep it for record purposes. Any suggestions on a good way to handle this would be appreciated thanks.

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    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Either way, I'm guessing the AGM is going to try and tell you that "it's unnecessary to your shopping" and that that's just the way their policy is. Probably a lot like how Costco puts it. Maybe keep it to an email so that you can explain your viewpoint better (and not be going back and forth on the phone). You could also mention you'd like the discussion kept on email so that you can pass along the regs to other gun owners so that they can be informed/possibly shop elsewhere (without turning it into a threat that you'll shop elsewhere). My 2c.

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiingislife725 View Post
    Either way, I'm guessing the AGM is going to try and tell you that "it's unnecessary to your shopping" and that that's just the way their policy is. Probably a lot like how Costco puts it. Maybe keep it to an email so that you can explain your viewpoint better (and not be going back and forth on the phone). You could also mention you'd like the discussion kept on email so that you can pass along the regs to other gun owners so that they can be informed/possibly shop elsewhere (without turning it into a threat that you'll shop elsewhere). My 2c.
    I had a lot of the same feelings. I'm not expecting a "real" explanation, just a bias perspective. I'll email Him back and ask to keep it within email so I can do as you suggested, pass along the information.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    When it comes to a conversation be it phone beware of recording laws, and likely if the conversation goes south it will come down to he said she said.
    Good idea to try and keep it written or at least a written response from them after your discussion.
    Last edited by BigDave; 04-24-2012 at 08:48 PM.
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    Will,

    I would like to talk with you about your comment card that I received in regards to the open carry at the mall. Please let me know when would be a good time to call you to discuss.

    Thank you,

    AJ Werfelmann
    Assistant General Manager
    Everett Mall

    A brief backdrop to what led to this; I went to the mall with my wife and when I was in the dressing room two mall security guards asked me to leave because I was OCing. They gave me the option to put it in my car, which is what I ended up doing. I didn't ask for the policy. A few days later, after trying to find it on the website, I went to the information desk and specifically asked for the rules. I was given nothing but some pitiful mumbo-jumbo about interpretation of the code of conduct. I asked if there were any other lawful acts I should refrain from to be accepted in the mall. So the security guard just walked off. From the sounds of it The AGM wants to call and speak so perhaps I'll record it or I'll try to keep it going through email to keep it for record purposes. Any suggestions on a good way to handle this would be appreciated thanks.
    To record on the phone would require their consent so be careful there.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    To record on the phone would require their consent so be careful there.
    Oh yes, of course. I would be sure to let him know if that were the case. But thanks for looking out.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    Oh yes, of course. I would be sure to let him know if that were the case. But thanks for looking out.
    Hey, no problem. He probably wouldn't like it though.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    To record on the phone would require their consent so be careful there.
    The consent can be an implied one too, they don't have to agree to being recorded as long as you inform them you are recording and that that is part of the recording. I went through this a few years ago the guy on the other side of the line refused to hang up but kept telling me I needed to stop recording, I told him his options were to keep talking, implying consent or hang up, eventually he kept talking but kept telling me he doesn't give consent.


    RCW 9.73.030

    Intercepting, recording, or divulging private communication — Consent required — Exceptions.
    (3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    The consent can be an implied one too, they don't have to agree to being recorded as long as you inform them you are recording and that that is part of the recording. I went through this a few years ago the guy on the other side of the line refused to hang up but kept telling me I needed to stop recording, I told him his options were to keep talking, implying consent or hang up, eventually he kept talking but kept telling me he doesn't give consent.
    Good to know, but what if my recorder is on all the time. When OCing my recorder is running. I pick up a lot of things when walking around.

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    Good to know, but what if my recorder is on all the time. When OCing my recorder is running. I pick up a lot of things when walking around.
    That statute is specifically dealing with electronic communication.

    If you are in public and the others you are recording have no expectation of privacy you are good to go.

    I wouldn't worry about it even if something was whispered to you and you recorded it, just omit that part if you ever have to go to court.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    Good to know, but what if my recorder is on all the time. When OCing my recorder is running. I pick up a lot of things when walking around.
    That tempts me to do the same thing.

    I would have to clear my recorder regularly then. I guess batteries are cheaper than attorneys.
    Might have to get a second recorder though.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That tempts me to do the same thing.

    I would have to clear my recorder regularly then. I guess batteries are cheaper than attorneys.
    Might have to get a second recorder though.
    OLympus 8000, got the idea from FMHD, rechargable triple a last few days, and the recorder can record to 38 hrs. straight. Just delete it if something don' happen. I know use the folder option and if I think I am going to have an encounter I change the folder. I am now in the habit of recording all inter-reactions between public officials and upload it to comp with brief description on title with date.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    OLympus 8000, got the idea from FMHD, rechargable triple a last few days, and the recorder can record to 38 hrs. straight. Just delete it if something don' happen. I know use the folder option and if I think I am going to have an encounter I change the folder. I am now in the habit of recording all inter-reactions between public officials and upload it to comp with brief description on title with date.
    Funny I carry the OLYMPUS WS-100.

    I have a record of the Redmond court claiming that they have never accepted Federal Reserve Notes. I also have a letter from the head judge there claiming that she did not know what they were.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    ummm,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom1man View Post
    funny i carry the olympus ws-100.

    I have a record of the redmond court claiming that they have never accepted federal reserve notes. I also have a letter from the head judge there claiming that she did not know what they were.
    priceless!!!
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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    As for recording the call, I had a job in a call center and had to inform everyone that they were being recorded. The "All calls are recorded" when you answer the call usually work wells. People rarely notice what's been said, but it's been said. Also, if you're calling out, I found that "This is a recorded call for..." works great. It lets whoever is on the other end know and it lets you ask for the person.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Not sure if this would apply to civilians. When I was in the Army I recorded almost every call coming in or out of my office. I did not inform anyone, but it was common knowledge that I was doing it. None of my recordings were used as recordings as the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) does not allow them. I could, however, use a "conversation record". A written transcript of the recording. If my veracity, or accuracy, is called in question, then the recording could be entered as evidence to verify the paper transcript.
    My question, Would this work here in the real world?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    no, there was a case in Kitsap County that definitively stated that unannounced recordings of "private" conversations is NOT allowed and is a violation of the privacy RCW.

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-...s/1330680.html best i can find, it is a bit hard to follow, sorry
    Last edited by Vitaeus; 04-25-2012 at 03:36 PM. Reason: added citation

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    question for the Mall Guy when you talk to him.


    The Supreme Court has ruled that the right to defend oneself is a "fundamental human right," and that the handgun is the quintessential self defense weapon. (DC v Heller)

    The Supreme Court has also ruled that, absent a special relationship, the police are not required to protect us. (DeShaney v. Winnebago County).

    Therefore, if the police are not required to aid you, and the mall refuses to let you protect yourself, what are you to do for safety? Are they going to assume responsibility for the safety of you and your family, and be willing to defend them as necessary from any and all persons who might intend harm to you?

    (We all know what they'll say, of course, but interesting questions...)

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    My question, Would this work here in the real world?
    Yes and no, depends on the state.

    Federal law is one-party consent. So as long as you know the recording is being made on your end, it's legal to record anyone you're on the phone with, whether you notify them or not. The same applies to states with one-party consent laws.

    Washington is what is called a two-party consent state, but actual state law would better be described as all-party consent. All people being recorded over the phone must be made aware of the recording (failure to make such a notification is a crime), and continuing to speak after such a notification is consent (even if they explicitly verbally refuse you permission to record). Illegal recordings are not only not admissible in court, they are in themselves evidence of a crime being committed (by whoever made them).

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I have a record of the Redmond court claiming that they have never accepted Federal Reserve Notes. I also have a letter from the head judge there claiming that she did not know what they were.
    That's hilarious. I know that if a private creditor refuses payment in legal tender, it discharges the debt. Is the same true if a government creditor refuses legal tender payment?
    Last edited by Difdi; 04-25-2012 at 02:55 PM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    That's hilarious. I know that if a private creditor refuses payment in legal tender, it discharges the debt.
    Why do people want to spread these myths without even looking into it?
    We often here of such things with firearms laws still today and we have easy access to the information.

    If you are going to state it, cite it please.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    That's hilarious. I know that if a private creditor refuses payment in legal tender, it discharges the debt. Is the same true if a government creditor refuses legal tender payment?
    Just took a quick look through the FDCPA and I didn't see any mention of this. Is this a state level provision? I know that where I work (I'll leave the name out of it) we refuse payment for various reasons. These offers are always with Legal Tender.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    question for the Mall Guy when you talk to him.


    The Supreme Court has ruled that the right to defend oneself is a "fundamental human right," and that the handgun is the quintessential self defense weapon. (DC v Heller)

    The Supreme Court has also ruled that, absent a special relationship, the police are not required to protect us. (DeShaney v. Winnebago County).

    Therefore, if the police are not required to aid you, and the mall refuses to let you protect yourself, what are you to do for safety? Are they going to assume responsibility for the safety of you and your family, and be willing to defend them as necessary from any and all persons who might intend harm to you?

    (We all know what they'll say, of course, but interesting questions...)
    That's what I was looking for, thanks.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Why do people want to spread these myths without even looking into it?
    We often here of such things with firearms laws still today and we have easy access to the information.

    If you are going to state it, cite it please.
    It's in the Washington State commercial code.

    I might link to it later.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    That's hilarious. I know that if a private creditor refuses payment in legal tender, it discharges the debt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    It's in the Washington State commercial code.

    I might link to it later.
    Get busy LOL
    Last edited by BigDave; 04-26-2012 at 12:01 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Get busy LOL
    RCW 62A.3-603
    Tender of payment.


    (a) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the effect of tender is governed by principles of law applicable to tender of payment under a simple contract.

    (b) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=62A.3-603


    Will I need to show you the federal law next?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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