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Thread: Michigan OC

  1. #1
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    Michigan OC

    I'm sorry if I should do my own research, but my girlfriend is choosing between getting an instate Ohio CPL or a Florida nonresident CCW. Florida would offer more reciprocity in the bible belt, where she visits often, but florida nonresident isn't valid in Michigan. Is permitless OC allowed in MI? Rules on permitless carry in cars? I have a huge sinus migraine and she called me to figure it out for her...

    Thanks

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    Last edited by Jake8x7; 04-25-2012 at 05:08 PM.

  2. #2
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    If she wants to have a handgun AT ALL in Michigan she will have to get the Ohio resident permit. She can always get both though.

    Michigan does not require a CPL to open carry (but it makes it much simpler), however because of our registration system all handguns in Michigan have to be registered, unless the person who has them is a non Michigan resident, and has a carry permit from their home state, otherwise their is no legal way for a non Michigan resident to have a handgun in Michigan let alone carry it.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    If she wants to have a handgun AT ALL in Michigan she will have to get the Ohio resident permit. She can always get both though.

    Michigan does not require a CPL to open carry (but it makes it much simpler), however because of our registration system all handguns in Michigan have to be registered, unless the person who has them is a non Michigan resident, and has a carry permit from their home state, otherwise their is no legal way for a non Michigan resident to have a handgun in Michigan let alone carry it.
    Close but not quite. To carry concealed in Michigan you must have a carry permit from your state of residence. To have the handgun in Michigan and open carry it you simply need to be licensed by this state or another to carry a concealed pistol no residency required. With the FL non-resident she would also be exempt from 750.234d but could not carry in the car and would have to transport like someone without a CPL.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by
    another state.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Close but not quite. To carry concealed in Michigan you must have a carry permit from your state of residence. To have the handgun in Michigan and open carry it you simply need to be licensed by this state or another to carry a concealed pistol no residency required. With the FL non-resident she would also be exempt from 750.234d but could not carry in the car and would have to transport like someone without a CPL.
    +1 Good job explaining the "nuances" of Michigan handgun law.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    If she wants to have a handgun AT ALL in Michigan she will have to get the Ohio resident permit. She can always get both though.

    Michigan does not require a CPL to open carry (but it makes it much simpler), however because of our registration system all handguns in Michigan have to be registered, unless the person who has them is a non Michigan resident, and has a carry permit from their home state, otherwise their is no legal way for a non Michigan resident to have a handgun in Michigan let alone carry it.
    I'm sorry but this is wrong (in red); please read the post from xmanhockey7.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    To the OP...
    it is sad that neither You or your Girlfriend wouldnt take 30 seconds
    to visit handgunlawus.com...

    If some one lives in a state,,, and wants to carry Concealled, the only first and right answer is to get your resident permit!
    The Ohio permit is ALL she needs, for home, for Michigan, for Florida and for travel!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 04-25-2012 at 10:11 PM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    I guess you missed the whole part about bible belt state CCing...Georgia Alabama and south Carolina don't accept Ohio CPL. Also, handgunlaws don't usually give the difficult answer (such as the one given about OCing legal but has to transport like a non permit holder)

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    Last edited by Jake8x7; 04-25-2012 at 10:18 PM.

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    To the OP...
    it is sad that neither You or your Girlfriend wouldnt take 30 seconds
    to visit handgunlawus.com...

    If some one lives in a state,,, and wants to carry Concealled, the only first and right answer is to get your resident permit!
    The Ohio permit is ALL she needs, for home, for Michigan, for Florida and for travel!
    I wouldn't follow the handgunlaw.us statements regarding transportation of a pistol in a vehicle; the law they cite is for LONG guns.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-25-2012 at 11:57 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake8x7 View Post
    I guess you missed the whole part about bible belt state CCing...Georgia Alabama and south Carolina don't accept Ohio CPL. Also, handgunlaws don't usually give the difficult answer (such as the one given about OCing legal but has to transport like a non permit holder)

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I wouldn't follow the handgunlaw.us statements regarding transportation of a pistol in a vehicle; the law they cite is for LONG guns.
    the girlfriends Ohio resident permit will afford her the "full carry rights and responabilities" of
    a Michigan, Florida AND South Carolina person, in those states!

    it is true she would not be covered in Georgia, Alabama or Mississippi, but a non res Florida or Utah permit would fix all of those.

    So her Ohio permit AND a "Florida or Utah non res permit" would be the great combination for all of her needs.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Would OH law allow her, an OH resident, to conceal in OH with a FL non-resident permit?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  12. #12
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Would OH law allow her, an OH resident, to conceal in OH with a FL non-resident permit?

    Bronson
    you should try to look that up for your self. I tried, but couldnt tell. many state make you get their resident permit.
    I do know that a non res florida permit wont let her CC in Michigan or south carolina, two of her wants.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Don't forget the federal gun free school zones act. Because of that vile piece of treasonous garbage, you must have a license from the state you are in at the time of carrying in question, in order to carry within 1000 feet of a school, aside from the laws exceptions such as private property.

    This is not a law which is often enforced, but that doesn't mean it won't happen if some cop decides to be an angry jerk. If you choose to disregard it, as the vast majority of people do while CCing in another state under a permit or licenses reciprocity agreements, you would be much less likely to have trouble while CCing under a license from your home state than OCing under just any license, because it's likely you'd be legal if stopped, and it's already unlikely you'd be stopped since you'd be CCing.

    I am not trying to directly advocate violation of the GFSZA, but these are the facts.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  14. #14
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Don't forget the federal gun free school zones act. Because of that vile piece of treasonous garbage, you must have a license from the state you are in at the time of carrying in question, in order to carry within 1000 feet of a school, aside from the laws exceptions such as private property.

    This is not a law which is often enforced, but that doesn't mean it won't happen if some cop decides to be an angry jerk. If you choose to disregard it, as the vast majority of people do while CCing in another state under a permit or licenses reciprocity agreements, you would be much less likely to have trouble while CCing under a license from your home state than OCing under just any license, because it's likely you'd be legal if stopped, and it's already unlikely you'd be stopped since you'd be CCing.

    I am not trying to directly advocate violation of the GFSZA, but these are the facts.
    It's worth noting you must knowingly be within 1,000 feet of a school.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    It's worth noting you must knowingly be within 1,000 feet of a school.
    Good thing they put up those school zone speed signs.

    Speeding ticket+ nosy cop=federal penitentiary

    I don't like that math.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  16. #16
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Show me a single case where someone has been prosecuted for this (Federal GFSZ) as a stand-alone crime.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  17. #17
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Show me a single case where someone has been prosecuted for this (Federal GFSZ) as a stand-alone crime.
    I have seen a list of persons prosecuted of this and IIRC some of them may have been "Stand-Alone"... I will search to see if I can find that posting...
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Show me a single case where someone has been prosecuted for this (Federal GFSZ) as a stand-alone crime.
    How is that relevant?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    How is that relevant?
    Sometimes we have a tendency to yell fire where there isn't even smoke.

    Yes, the law needs to be fixed -- but is it even be enforced beyond an "enhancer crime" to a school shooting?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I have seen a list of persons prosecuted of this and IIRC some of them may have been "Stand-Alone"... I will search to see if I can find that posting...
    Make sure it was federal and not under a state law. Some states mirror the fed law.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Q, whether it is or is not regularly enforced is irrelevant. What is important is that it 'could' be... and as a community that focuses on the importance of events that are rare but possible, Michigander's is good advice to follow.

    Aside from the GFSZA though, it seems like you might be well advised to apply for both permits.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Exactly, evil. We tread on thin ice, because so many mid western cops get into the business for all the wrong reasons, and become angered when they realize that their gun, their stupid little manhood badge they devoted their working lives to being able to carry openly, was actually a right that everyone has without the hassle they put themselves through.

    Before Q got involved, back in 09, I for one had an interaction where the cops were going back and forth talking about if they could press charges under the GFSZA. Later on, perhaps due to it becoming better known that the PP is a "license to carry" satisfying the GFSZA, it hasn't come up since that I've heard. But do you really think that a ****** bag cop who knows the laws wouldn't charge someone with an out of state license? Just think of the recent Birmingham incident. They don't even have a real law to charge him under!

    Even now, there are bully cops all over much of our state. You certainly know this, Q. And when they feel their professionally derived masculinity is at stake, provided they don't think their actions will get them fired, they will do anything and everything they can to railroad you. Advising someone to knowingly put themselves in harms way, it's completely insane.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-30-2012 at 01:27 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Certain parties (while lobbying) want to get rid of LTP and registration in Michigan. When I bring up GFSZA they ask me to cite a single stand alone case. Please give me one -- because at the Capitol it sounds like I'm whining over nothing to some people.

    I know many of you think lobbying and politics is a bunch of ********. You're right, it is. Show me a more effective way to get legislation changed.

    If we're following your advise we should advocate no one from our of state carry in a Michigan Metro area. As we know, they have no Michigan issued permit and good luck going through a city of more than 30,000 without passing within 1000' of school grounds. Is that what you advise?
    Last edited by TheQ; 04-30-2012 at 01:43 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    A permit to purchase is, as Michigander mentioned, a 'license to carry' for the purposes of GFSZA. For the purposes of the OP though, it has to be a license issued by the state you are carrying in. Michigan residents who have purchased their pistols in Michigan or registered their pistols in Michigan are fine.

    If the Permit to Purchase is removed however, those without CPLs will be subject to GFSZA...

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    A permit to purchase is, as Michigander mentioned, a 'license to carry' for the purposes of GFSZA. For the purposes of the OP though, it has to be a license issued by the state you are carrying in. Michigan residents who have purchased their pistols in Michigan or registered their pistols in Michigan are fine.

    If the Permit to Purchase is removed however, those without CPLs will be subject to GFSZA...
    I know that. But, when I bring up that point I get asked "has there been any cases of someone prosecuted under the FGFZSA as a stand-alone crime?" when that is asked, I don't have an answer. I'm hoping someone here can show me a case.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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