De-stressing your gun(s)

There is no benefit from freezing and thawing a metal that started out at room temperature.

Permanent damage can occur in bi-metal parts, such as some welds, or where a harder metal has been bonded to a softer metal for durability. due to different coefficients of expansion, one metal contracts more, faster, than the other. This can cause a permanent bend or separation of the metals.

It can also damage the finish of coated parts. If the metal contracts more or faster, during freezing, than the coating, the coating may crack and/or delaminate from the part.

Most weapon manufacturers use parts that have been properly annealed to reduce OR INDUCE stress where necessary.

I would demand to see the study that proves the benefits advertised before wasting money on this "service". At a minimum, contact your firearm manufacturer for a reccomendation before you do something as silly as freezing your gun.

Beretta92FSLady said:

The funny thing is you understand what they had written. And yet you complain. You would argue with a possum.

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+1

MyWifeSaidYes said:

There is no benefit from freezing and thawing a metal that started out at room temperature.

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A solid is already frozen.

The temperatures in heat treating steel alloys may be as low as (cryo-treatment) -200°C 78K to 1600°C. It is a legitimate process, the question is of its appropriateness in an item as carefully engineered as a gun.

Like the debates here of the fatigue life of a spring, it is susceptible to a bit of learning.

Herr Heckler Koch said:

--snap--

Like the debates here of the fatigue life of a spring, it is susceptible to a bit of learning.

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Old wives tales and urban myths not withstanding, subject to memory.

Sig229 said:

Huh?
I guess my Glocks must be counterfeit ones because the entire slide and barrel are metal.

Maybe thats why I keep getting stopped by the TSA when I try to sneak through airport security with my Glocks.
Those Rap songs and anti gunners all promised me that Glocks had no metal and cant be picked up by a magnetometer!

Damn, I should have listened!

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The frame is plastic. The barre and top slides are all metal... I carry Glocks. It was an over generalization. Not to taken so literally. Geeze...

MyWifeSaidYes said:

I would demand to see the study that proves the benefits advertised before wasting money on this "service". At a minimum, contact your firearm manufacturer for a reccomendation before you do something as silly as freezing your gun.

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I am not advocating cryo at all.:banghead:

It was just used because that is one form of thermal de-stressing that seems to be popular. I've seen things like pantyhose the last longer from it, rifle barrels group up better, etc. I don't advocate it for everything it has it's uses sure but is not cost effective for firearms. It take something between 48-72 hours to dip a gun correctly because you have to slowly cool it and then keep it at the cryo temp for set length of time and then slowly warm it back up. And that is only if my memory about the process. It had to be done slow because of all the different materials involved and to not re-stress the materials.

I am more interested in NON-Thermal de-stressing of metals. Takes about 2 hours for engine blocks and smaller and up to about 72 hours (memory serving me correctly will correct this if I am wrong) to de-stress a whole bridge.

I've read about it being used on things from as small a dowel pins to whole bridges. Pistol barrels to tank main guns maybe even bigger.

Some people who build their own racing engines on a budget use non-thermal de-stressing because, it works and do to the fact it works it saves them money and it gives them a competitive edge.


Back to the original questions though.

Have you done it on your firearms yes or no? Did it work for you yes or no? How much did you pay for it after shipping and everything if you did it?
What would you pay to have it done? IE What is a fair amount in your mind? I know some of the going rates before shipping etc.

This was not intended to go on about snake oils, motor oils, gun oils etc.
Although the best, and maybe cheapest, guns oils are synthetic motor oils. Militec has worked for me thus far. I have never tried snake oil on a gun let me know how it works after you squeeze the oil from a snake okay. Enough about oils though.

I was really looking for info from people who have done one de-stressing form or another and what they thought of the results.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

There is no benefit from freezing and thawing a metal that started out at room temperature.

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Please back up your claims with facts/research please.

The solution to this problem is deep-cryogenic tempering of the parts. "The deep cryogenic tempering process for gears is an inexpensive, one-time, permanent treatment, affecting the entire part, not just the surface. Gears may be new or used, sharp or dull, and re-sharpening will not destroy the treatment (2 p.1)."

The process of deep-cryogenic or freeze tempering is really quite simple. "A Freeze Tempering Process means that the material to be treated is not exposed to any Liquid Nitrogen, which eliminates the risk of thermal shock. The material is frozen through a thermo-dynamic refrigeration cycle. The material is cooled slowly, held for a prolonged period of time 48-60 hours, and allowed to return to room temperature slowly (4 p.1)."

How deep-cryogenic tempering works: by cooling the metal to well below zero the retained austenite will transform into martensite which can then be further tempered after being slowly heated back to room temperature. The effects are very pronounced in tool steels but the process also works well in most steels as well as polymers (5 p.1).

Why cool to -300° F instead of some other temperature? A deep-cryogenic cycle doubles the results of a shallow-cryogenic cycle. After performing separate laboratory tests it was determined that cold treatment improves wear resistance and that the colder the treatment the better. The dry ice or -120° F test showed improved wear resistance of 1.2 to 2 times, depending on the alloy. The deep cryogenic treatment at -317° F showed improved wear resistance of 2.0 to 6.6 times (2 p.2-3).

Myths about Cryogenic Processing and Metal Wear:

"Cryogenic processing will make the metal harder and therefore more brittle.

Although cryogenic processing makes metals more wear resistant, it rarely increases hardness any significant amount. The wear resistance comes from a refined crystal structure, not an increase in hardness (7 p.2-3)."

"Cryogenic processing has no effect on low carbon steel, cast iron, and non ferrous metals.

You don’t need retained austenite for cryogenics to have an effect. Very pure silver and very pure copper will react to cryogenic processing. The same is true of copper alloys, low carbon steel and most materials that have a crystalline structure, including plastics (7 p.3-4)."

There are numerous applications for this process which include; Industrial (machine tools, dies, and other products), Motor Sports (engines, valves, rods, pistons, etc.), Sporting goods (softball bats, golf clubs, tennis rackets), Musical Instruments (any instrument not made of wood), Electronics (anything including CD’s), Farm Implements (plows, shovels, picks, etc.) (6 p.1).

I carry a glock....it prefers to be thrown in the mud and stomped on.....

(okay okay - I've literally never done this to my gun. I buy "rugged" guns only to baby them and clean them meticulously after every use at the range lol)

Freedom1Man said:

Please back up your claims with facts/research please.

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Fair enough. Let me rephrase that line:

I do not feel there would be any benefit from freezing and thawing a metal part in a gun that started out at room temperature.

If it only takes 72 hours for a bridge to de-stress, your handgun most likely de-stressed while being shipped to your local gun store.

I, too, am interested in hearing from anyone that has used this type of service.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

If it only takes 72 hours for a bridge to de-stress, your handgun most likely de-stressed while being shipped to your local gun store.

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Wow out of context. The 72 hours is with the process without a process it might never de-stress.

Using a non-thermal de-stressing process. The metal in the gun can take YEARS (if ever) to de-stress naturally. Engine blocks take 2 or more years without any outside process. Those are cast.

You keep talking about racing engines. Do you have any documentation of ANYONE who de-stresses their engine? Tonight was race night at the drag strip. Some of the guys were running $5K+ engines, none of them had a clue what I was talking about. I heard a lot about balanced crank shafts, heard something about hot dipping the engine in apple juice but none told me anything about their motor being de stressed. Let alone frozen.

Cite the sources you're getting your information from.

"Please back up your claims with facts/research please."

My personal experience with welding, 70,80,90 tensile strength metals & SS, over 20 yrs. can be boiled down to TWO important Facts, Heat and Penetration.

Heat, to guarantee melding of filler metal Penetration into original metal part(s).

I'll keep my comments at this time to the Stainless Steel issue, just to Keep It Simple.

Before the process begins, it is of Vital importance to bring to Temp. & Maintain ??? deg. F., during said welding process.

My example, I'll use 410 Stainless, is heated to 450 deg. F., although 400 deg. is all spec. requires. However weld cycle (duration) can vary, so too much (within spec= 400-700 deg. F.) is better than not enough.

IF metal is subjected to extreme +/- Temps during weld cycle, then the end result will be some expensive scrap metal due to finished product defects found during NDT/MPI....,cracks, lack of fusion, porosity,,,etc.

The most interesting feature about 410 SS is after weld cycle is complete, I can merely put the job aside, cover with heat blanket and then let cool to room Temp.

Now, comes the next important aspect of the weld process = Anneal Cycle.

This spec. Requires the completed product to be soaked at 1250 deg. F. for 5-8 hrs., depending on depth of weld deposition & overall sq. in. of product.

After anneal process is finished, part is cooled off slowly inside Oven about the same amount of time which it had been cooked.

Finally, Heat Created During the Machining process is NOT a good thing, so it's of the utmost importance to avoid that issue by using a Spray Coolant or at least an air stream onto part to eliminate further technical difficulties.

I hope that I haven't totally bored you with unnecessary info and wish you the best in making a decision concerning original posting.

PEACE & RKBA FOREVER !!!

scott58dh said:

My personal experience with welding, 70,80,90 tensile strength metals & SS, over 20 yrs. can be boiled down to TWO important Facts, Heat and Penetration.

Heat, to guarantee melding of filler metal Penetration into original metal part(s).

I'll keep my comments at this time to the Stainless Steel issue, just to Keep It Simple.

Before the process begins, it is of Vital importance to bring to Temp. & Maintain ??? deg. F., during said welding process.

My example, I'll use 410 Stainless, is heated to 450 deg. F., although 400 deg. is all spec. requires. However weld cycle (duration) can vary, so too much (within spec= 400-700 deg. F.) is better than not enough.

IF metal is subjected to extreme +/- Temps during weld cycle, then the end result will be some expensive scrap metal due to finished product defects found during NDT/MPI....,cracks, lack of fusion, porosity,,,etc.

The most interesting feature about 410 SS is after weld cycle is complete, I can merely put the job aside, cover with heat blanket and then let cool to room Temp.

Now, comes the next important aspect of the weld process = Anneal Cycle.

This spec. Requires the completed product to be soaked at 1250 deg. F. for 5-8 hrs., depending on depth of weld deposition & overall sq. in. of product.

After anneal process is finished, part is cooled off slowly inside Oven about the same amount of time which it had been cooked.

Finally, Heat Created During the Machining process is NOT a good thing, so it's of the utmost importance to avoid that issue by using a Spray Coolant or at least an air stream onto part to eliminate further technical difficulties.

I hope that I haven't totally bored you with unnecessary info and wish you the best in making a decision concerning original posting.

PEACE & RKBA FOREVER !!!

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Skip most of that and stress relieve while welding.

I know that heat is a bad thing when machining. That is why some parts need a stress relieving process. No matter how much coolant you use you can still get stress in metals. The other thing that keeps heat down in machining is high speed machining and dynamic cutter paths. Oh yeah climb milling helps too along with keeping the correct chip size etc.

09jisaac said:

You keep talking about racing engines. Do you have any documentation of ANYONE who de-stresses their engine? Tonight was race night at the drag strip. Some of the guys were running $5K+ engines, none of them had a clue what I was talking about. I heard a lot about balanced crank shafts, heard something about hot dipping the engine in apple juice but none told me anything about their motor being de stressed. Let alone frozen.

Cite the sources you're getting your information from.

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Just because they have money does not mean they have information.

Do your own search for non thermal stress relief of metal.

I am not going to deny you a chance to learn on your own.

Ask your friend there how long they let their new blocks sit when they get it from the factory. Hell they even talk about stress relief of engines in the engine builder's magazine. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/67097/mysterious_processes_proven_results.aspx

Can't remember the small shop that used it to save money though.

Just because they don't realize that they do it does not mean they don't do it.

The railroad does it too. That is why parts will sit in their yard for a couple of years after they make them is so they don't break right after they install them.

This still detracts from my posted question though.

Metal destressing is real.

Not sure beyond the barrel and maybe a select other few parts, that is going to have much of a perceived impact at all.. This is assuming that manufacturers do this anyway to their barrels (which would make sense).

Otherwise unless I had money to burn and could shoot better than my weapon, I would find it to be a waste of money.

VW_Factor said:

Metal destressing is real.

Not sure beyond the barrel and maybe a select other few parts, that is going to have much of a perceived impact at all.. This is assuming that manufacturers do this anyway to their barrels (which would make sense).

Otherwise unless I had money to burn and could shoot better than my weapon, I would find it to be a waste of money.

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The ones I have looked into all use thermal de-stressing.

If you did that to a hardened action though you would soften it.

I am glad that I got a response to the question though.

You would not pay any amount for it.

I know that the bench rest guys use stuff like this. That is how I learned about it at all.
I wanted to know more about it so I looked into it and how I learned it's more than just guns.

Freedom1Man said:

The ones I have looked into all use thermal de-stressing.

If you did that to a hardened action though you would soften it.

I am glad that I got a response to the question though.

You would not pay any amount for it.

I know that the bench rest guys use stuff like this. That is how I learned about it at all.
I wanted to know more about it so I looked into it and how I learned it's more than just guns.

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I know its used in certain manufacturing processes for parts where high strength is required or exacting tolerances or both. I don't see it having much impact at all in firearms beyond maybe someone doing this for a barrel on a rifle where they are shooting extreme distances.

Even then, the other factors in shooting like that like wind and such are going to have a much greater perceived impact than de-stressing the metal in the barrel. If you would notice it at all.

Yep, you got it !

Freedom1Man said:

Skip most of that and stress relieve while welding.

I know that heat is a bad thing when machining. That is why some parts need a stress relieving process. No matter how much coolant you use you can still get stress in metals. The other thing that keeps heat down in machining is high speed machining and dynamic cutter paths. Oh yeah climb milling helps too along with keeping the correct chip size etc.

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I didn't address the machining variables because I was just focusing on the importance of irregular Temps and related issues during weld/anneal cycle.

Of course Speeds/Feeds during Mach. process are very critical to the final desired outcome of finished product.

I just thot I'd put in my .02 cents worth and find out your views.

However, it seems to me that ANY company worth their salt would have already figured out all of the stress issues, thru R&D, Engineers & the like for a Quality Product that Customers are paying $100's for.

I believe just during normal use, breaking in and maintenance of your purchase will in the end reveal any defects that might have gotten by final Insp., thus that why any reputable company gives a Guarantee that their Product will stand the test of time.

So, any thing that is offered post production to ***Improve*** said product, excluding add ons, is a waste of money.

Put a 1000 rounds thru it, if it doesn't pass Your Ideal Results, the consumers satisfaction is the True test of Quality, then get rid of it and make a new purchase from a Different Company.

Have fun shooting !

Peace & RKBA FOREVER :exclaim::exclaim::exclaim:

It isnt my gun that needs de-stressing. Its me


==========================================
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
Looking for training by experienced staff?
We are the largest all female only firearms group on the East Coast offering firearms training courses and services provided by our experienced and certified female instructors.
http://www.shecanshoot.com/

Ditto !!!

Steeler-gal said:

It isnt my gun that needs de-stressing. Its me


==========================================
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
Looking for training by experienced staff?
We are the largest all female only firearms group on the East Coast offering firearms training courses and services provided by our experienced and certified female instructors.
http://www.shecanshoot.com/

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Happiness is a warm gun,,,BANG BANG,,, SHOOT SHOOT :exclaim::exclaim::exclaim: