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Thread: Too Crazy To Own A Firearm...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Too Crazy To Own A Firearm...

    I have been fixed on a general argument that mentally ill individuals ought not be allowed to own firearms.

    Now, if some person has no grasp of Reality, they ought not own firearms, IMO.--for instance: Someone who believes they are from planet Mars, and can travel through time, and that humans are actually robots created by some far-off alien civilization.

    Back to Reality (at least A Reality)...

    If an individual is sane enough to be deemed responsible for their 'actions' then they ought to be permitted to own firearms; anyone disagree with this assertion? I realize that the assertion is that individuals would be "deemed sane enough."--if you disagree with the assertion that individuals ought to be 'deemed' anything, I understand; I am not asserting that that is my view, that individuals ought to be deemed, it's just that individuals are, by the System.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    This is a subject that is wide open.

    Who will determain the level of sanity that is required to own a gun? The goverment?

    What if the goverment said anyone that is taking mediciation for ANY mental disorder isn't allowed to have a gun.

    What if the goverment decided that anyone being compinsated for a mental disorder can't have a gun. Reference the military PTSD VA benifits or anyone getting Medicaid or Welfare due to a mental problem.

    This is a scary issue as there are a lot of people that have been given medication for depression or other mental issues. Think of all the people the goverment could disarm with one bill signed by the president.

    Scary.....

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post

    This is a scary issue as there are a lot of people that have been given medication for depression or other mental issues. Think of all the people the goverment could disarm with one bill signed by the president.

    .
    That's what I'm getting at though, if you are sane enough to be tried in court for any act then you ought to be permitted to own Firearms.

    I have been thinking much lately about whether mentally ill individuals ought to be permitted to own firearms.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    That's what I'm getting at though, if you are sane enough to be tried in court for any act then you ought to be permitted to own Firearms.

    I have been thinking much lately about whether mentally ill individuals ought to be permitted to own firearms.
    I agree it should only be the worse citizens of America that can't own weapons like Charles Manson, Jeffrey Domer, John Hinkley, and all politicians.

    You know the VERY WORSE people in our sociaty.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    I agree it should only be the worse citizens of America that can't own weapons like Charles Manson, Jeffrey Domer, John Hinkley, and all politicians.

    You know the VERY WORSE people in our sociaty.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I have been fixed on a general argument that mentally ill individuals ought not be allowed to own firearms.

    Now, if some person has no grasp of Reality, they ought not own firearms, IMO.--for instance: Someone who believes they are from planet Mars, and can travel through time, and that humans are actually robots created by some far-off alien civilization.

    Back to Reality (at least A Reality)...

    If an individual is sane enough to be deemed responsible for their 'actions' then they ought to be permitted to own firearms; anyone disagree with this assertion? I realize that the assertion is that individuals would be "deemed sane enough."--if you disagree with the assertion that individuals ought to be 'deemed' anything, I understand; I am not asserting that that is my view, that individuals ought to be deemed, it's just that individuals are, by the System.
    Typically we have folks whose sanity should be questioned who are the ones deciding whose sanity must be determined.

    ....far-off alien civilization? Nope....the NSA.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Two things:

    1) Political abuse of psychiatry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...e_Soviet_Union

    What happens when political views are determined to be a sign of mental illness? Recently, a professor made the news for suggesting that opposition to the theory of anthropogenic global warming should be treated as a mental illness. I have also heard accusations that a person who stockpiles guns and groceries is "paranoid," that those who don't believe in sending their children to government mind-laundries are "unstable," etc. The bottom line is that any classification, by which folks can be denied their rights, can be twisted around to encompass any target population. This is especially true among relativistic liberals like Beretta, who profess that there are no universal truths, and that everything is subject to interpretation.

    2. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
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    Regular Member J_Oliver's Avatar
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    Most of the antipsychotic medications can be/are prescribed for multiple uses other than a psychotic condition. So what happens to the folks with controlled forms of epilepsy or sleeping disorders that are prescribed antipsychotic medications for their disorders? Should they not be allowed to defend themselves and their families?

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Two things:

    1) Political abuse of psychiatry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...e_Soviet_Union
    F*ck a bunch of commies; we are talking about America.

    What happens when political views are determined to be a sign of mental illness?
    Then we will deal with that issue.

    [snippers] The bottom line is that any classification, by which folks can be denied their rights, can be twisted around to encompass any target population. This is especially true among relativistic liberals like Beretta, who profess that there are no universal truths, and that everything is subject to interpretation.
    Hee hee, you called me a Relativist.

    2. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
    Infringement is a matter of degrees. Don't get me wrong, I believe many things ought to be what you believe they ARE. Where we diverge is in application, things that ought, are not always, and if they are, well, it is a matter of degrees.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-27-2012 at 04:30 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Oliver View Post
    Most of the antipsychotic medications can be/are prescribed for multiple uses other than a psychotic condition. So what happens to the folks with controlled forms of epilepsy or sleeping disorders that are prescribed antipsychotic medications for their disorders? Should they not be allowed to defend themselves and their families?

    Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk
    I will give an example (maybe I shouldn't LOL): I take a thyroid medication because apparently I have had a thyroid issue for many years, but was unaware of it...until, well, I started having severe Mania's (still functional) about two years ago, and six months ago it got so out of control I had to be hospitalized--for a time I did not carry, not because I didn't trust my sanity, just that I was in no position to even drive for a while; my wife carried instead. I have asked myself if someone like me ought not be permitted to own firearms, and I say: Yes, people like me ought to. The reason: Even when I am in a mania, I am still sane, if that makes sense; I just might seem to be insane to people observing me. So, the OT here was that if a person is sane enough to be charged for a crime by their unlawful actions, then they ought to not be barred from owning, and carrying firearms.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    F*ck a bunch of commies
    You shouldn't talk about yourself like that...
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I have an example of a CRAZY PERSON...

    So, I am sitting here online, and just outside my window I can see the school two of my children attend. I look out the window and this man walks up to a huge fir the school has growing at the corner of the lot, and starts cutting the tree down. LMAO...so, Seattle's finest pull-up, and get into with the guy, then arrest the guy. The guy is crazy, IMO. Then again, maybe he is perfectly sane, and making a political statement.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-27-2012 at 04:47 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    You shouldn't talk about yourself like that...
    That is merely one of my personalities.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Bat crap insane individuals perhaps ought to not own firearms. But what ought not happen and what should be illegal are very different things.

    Also, you keep saying permitted. Do you not believe in the RKBA?

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Bat crap insane individuals perhaps ought to not own firearms. But what ought not happen and what should be illegal are very different things.

    Also, you keep saying permitted. Do you not believe in the RKBA?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    I meant to word it so that it wouldn't be misunderstood that I was starting an discussion about whether we should be "permitted" or "not-permitted." I believe I stated something along the lines of "barred" as it relates to firearm ownership, but I did use the term "permitted" as well; in the barred sense.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-27-2012 at 05:56 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I meant to word it so that it wouldn't be misunderstood that I was starting an discussion about whether we should be "permitted" or "not-permitted." I believe I stated something along the lines of "barred" as it relates to firearm ownership, but I did use the term "permitted" as well; in the barred sense.
    What is the difference between between an action being barred by government and not permitted by government, when the penalty for both is loss of life, liberty, and/or property?
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    What is the difference between between an action being barred by government and not permitted by government, when the penalty for both is loss of life, liberty, and/or property?
    To save an argument I meant to leave out the term 'permitted.'

    In answer to your question: Permitting is based on the premise that the Government can not-Permit therefore Permit. Barring is merely the premise that the individual is inherent with the Right to own firearms, and bear them, but can be barred, if, let's say: You are freaking insane...I know, i know, "who decides who is 'insane'? Trust me, there are insane people out there that ought to be barred from owning firearms, and I'm not talking about political beliefs, or any non-sense like that. I am talking individuals who suffer from a lack of capacity to control, for instance, Ideations, where they are unable to decipher Reality from their own thoughts. That is not to say that Schizophrenics for example, ought to be barred, there are plenty that have their issue under control, and are able to decipher Ideations (whether internal or external) from Reality.

    *Also* Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is not exclusively wrapped-up in the ownership of a firearm. There are plenty of individuals who lack the emotional, and intellectual capacity to own firearms that can pursue those three things in their own way.

    I will offer another example: When I was in the hospital there was a man there that had a brain injury that left him for the most part rational, but he would become psychotic (the violent kind) just sitting there doing a simple thing like eating his dinner; and he had no control over the outburst, even on medication. That is a man that ought be barred from owning firearms.--he was incapable of controlling his violent impulses; it was actually quite sad to see.

    I would love to walk through a psychiatric hospital and you tell me that some of the individuals that are in there ought to be able to purchase firearms; you have obviously never taken a walk through a psychiatric ward.

    The penalty may be the same, but they are not derived from the same premise, IMO. Also, the term Permitted, implies a Power to Permit or not-Permit. I, in my response, did not mean in any way to assert that the Government has the Power to not-Permit therefore Permit.

    I wonder: Is the Government capable of utilizing its Power is such a way that it bars a person who lacks the emotional, and intellectual capacity (as the man I used as an example), but outside of that is barred itself from barring any other individual? I believe the Government can function in that way.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-27-2012 at 07:12 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    As much as I should know better, I'll bite.

    The problem with allowing the government to say who can and can't have firearms at all is that once they can prohibit one person its not long before the standard is changed for others. A standard, of sanity as described by the OP, can be progressively changed over the years too easily and even to the point where only those who are of the exact same mindset as the standard writers is allowed to have a means to defend onesself. The point of disallowing the government to stop someone from having arms is that EVERYONE has the same need to provide for their own defense.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Oliver View Post
    Most of the antipsychotic medications can be/are prescribed for multiple uses other than a psychotic condition. So what happens to the folks with controlled forms of epilepsy or sleeping disorders that are prescribed antipsychotic medications for their disorders?
    IANAL, but as I understand it, and the way it stands right now, the prevailing prohibition applies to those who have "been adjudicated" mentally ill, not to people who are simply taking anti-psychotic drugs as treatment for other conditions. I agree that we don't need loonies running around with guns. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    I agree that we don't need loonies running around with guns. Pax...
    Yes...because gun laws always prevent undesirables from getting guns...
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Yes...because gun laws always prevent undesirables from getting guns...
    I don't think they stated that the individual would be unable to get a sidearm. It stops the individual from obtaining the firearm through a legitimate avenue. As for not-legit avenues, well, none of us want our firearms registered, and I am down with that. Firearms Laws are meant (not saying they necessarily do just this) to stop individuals who are barred from purchasing firearms from purchasing firearms through legitimate avenues that law-abiding citizens purchase firearms.

    But I am sure you already knew that, and reject it.

    There are very few individuals, a small portion of the firearms-owning community, IMO, that are fine with individuals who lack emotional and intellectual capacity, to own and carry firearms.--definitely a minority in the pro-firearms community.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-28-2012 at 02:47 AM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post

    There are very few individuals, a small portion of the firearms-owning community, IMO, that are fine with individuals who lack the emotional and intellectual capacity owning firearms.--definitely a minority in the pro-firearms community.
    What I'm not fine with is people like you deciding which people are "too crazy" to own a firearm.

    This is the difference between me and you: we both have opinions, but I don't seek to use the State's lethal force to compel others to conform to my opinions.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    What I'm not fine with is people like you deciding which people are "too crazy" to own a firearm.

    This is the difference between me and you: we both have opinions, but I don't seek to use the State's lethal force to compel others to conform to my opinions.
    I outlined above what type of individual I was referring to. Don't act as if I generalized what is a reasonable definition of not having the capacity.

    Yes, that is the difference between you and me--I see a social negative in individuals who lack the emotional and/or intellectual capacity, owning firearms. You see it as an infringement on your Freedoms and Rights; Kinda makes one wonder...

    It seems that you have some control issues. You like to be in control of everything in your life, don't you? You may as well pluck that little notion from your mind because you have little control--sorry to break the news to you.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-28-2012 at 02:52 AM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    It seems that you have some control issues. You like to be in control of everything in your life, don't you?
    Yes, I do, and there is nothing wrong with that. I seek to run my own life without outside interference or compelled assistance.

    You seek to use the State to control every other person's life, in any area in which he may do something you disagree with, for whatever reason.

    So, tell me again about how I have control issues...
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Yes, I do, and there is nothing wrong with that. I seek to run my own life without outside interference or compelled assistance.
    We all have goals; yours is a bit to ambitious.

    You seek to use the State to control every other person's life, in any area in which he may do something you disagree with, for whatever reason.
    Umm, no, I don't. You obviously haven't been reading my posts.

    So, tell me again about how I have control issues...
    You have control issues because you think you are actually capable of being fully in control of your so-called Life. You cling to that Ideal of Control as though it is the pinnacle of your human experience. By all means, continue on; I'm not here to try, and stop you in your quest.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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