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Too Crazy To Own A Firearm...

Beretta92FSLady

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Dec 14, 2009
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Yes...because gun laws always prevent undesirables from getting guns... :banghead:

I don't think they stated that the individual would be unable to get a sidearm. It stops the individual from obtaining the firearm through a legitimate avenue. As for not-legit avenues, well, none of us want our firearms registered, and I am down with that. Firearms Laws are meant (not saying they necessarily do just this) to stop individuals who are barred from purchasing firearms from purchasing firearms through legitimate avenues that law-abiding citizens purchase firearms.

But I am sure you already knew that, and reject it.

There are very few individuals, a small portion of the firearms-owning community, IMO, that are fine with individuals who lack emotional and intellectual capacity, to own and carry firearms.--definitely a minority in the pro-firearms community.
 
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ManInBlack

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SW Idaho
There are very few individuals, a small portion of the firearms-owning community, IMO, that are fine with individuals who lack the emotional and intellectual capacity owning firearms.--definitely a minority in the pro-firearms community.

What I'm not fine with is people like you deciding which people are "too crazy" to own a firearm.

This is the difference between me and you: we both have opinions, but I don't seek to use the State's lethal force to compel others to conform to my opinions.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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What I'm not fine with is people like you deciding which people are "too crazy" to own a firearm.

This is the difference between me and you: we both have opinions, but I don't seek to use the State's lethal force to compel others to conform to my opinions.

I outlined above what type of individual I was referring to. Don't act as if I generalized what is a reasonable definition of not having the capacity.

Yes, that is the difference between you and me--I see a social negative in individuals who lack the emotional and/or intellectual capacity, owning firearms. You see it as an infringement on your Freedoms and Rights; Kinda makes one wonder...

It seems that you have some control issues. You like to be in control of everything in your life, don't you? You may as well pluck that little notion from your mind because you have little control--sorry to break the news to you.
 
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ManInBlack

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It seems that you have some control issues. You like to be in control of everything in your life, don't you?

Yes, I do, and there is nothing wrong with that. I seek to run my own life without outside interference or compelled assistance.

You seek to use the State to control every other person's life, in any area in which he may do something you disagree with, for whatever reason.

So, tell me again about how I have control issues...
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Yes, I do, and there is nothing wrong with that. I seek to run my own life without outside interference or compelled assistance.

We all have goals; yours is a bit to ambitious.

You seek to use the State to control every other person's life, in any area in which he may do something you disagree with, for whatever reason.

Umm, no, I don't. You obviously haven't been reading my posts.

So, tell me again about how I have control issues...

You have control issues because you think you are actually capable of being fully in control of your so-called Life. You cling to that Ideal of Control as though it is the pinnacle of your human experience. By all means, continue on; I'm not here to try, and stop you in your quest.
 

MKEgal

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in front of my computer, WI
Beretta92FSLady said:
I have been thinking much lately about whether mentally ill individuals ought to be permitted to own firearms.
As long as someone with a disease is not a danger to others the gov't has no say in what s/he does.
Just like anyone else.

DocWalker said:
Who will determain the level of sanity that is required to own a gun? The goverment?
It already does.
If someone is found not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect,
or is adjudicated to be mentally incompetent,
they're a prohibited person.
That's where the VA & BATFEces get their :cuss: idea that veterans who have people appointed to help with their finances, etc., must have their guns taken away.
From what I've read, no veteran should ever admit to anyone connected with the VA that s/he has firearms.
Talk about having a government record!

And BATFEces agents apparently don't have the brains to distinguish between things owned by the veteran & things owned by the spouse or family of the veteran. I've heard horror stories of agents showing up at someone's home & making off with every firearm they can find.

J_Oliver said:
So what happens to the folks with controlled forms of epilepsy or sleeping disorders that are prescribed antipsychotic medications for their disorders?
Now you've opened another issue, or perhaps another iteration of the one we're already discussing - people who can't control their bodies.
I'd be less worried about someone who is depressed or manic than about someone who has seizures.
But you see where this gets us?
Right back to having 2 classes of people - the ones who are good enough to have their rights & the ones who aren't (for whatever reason).
 

Beretta92FSLady

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[snippers]
Right back to having 2 classes of people - the ones who are good enough to have their rights & the ones who aren't (for whatever reason).

And as you have conceded too, hesitantly, there are individuals who ought be barred from owning firearms. Neither of us are referring to Veterans. We both agree that individuals who have no control over their psychological, and physical state ought not own firearms. Such as: Individuals who uncontrollably go into psychotic rages.

There ought to be a standard, a reasonable standard that begins with the Principle that all individuals have a Right to own firearms, and to carry firearms, but there are certain instances where individuals ought to be barred from purchasing, and owning firearms through legitimate sources that are accessed by individuals who have the capacity to handle firearms safely.
 

Aknazer

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Mar 6, 2011
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California
The only "mentally ill" people that I would agree should have their 2A rights revoked are those that have been found to require a guardian at all times. These people are in effect still mentally minors even if their age says they are an adult. Should someone move beyond this state (such as someone in an insane asylum who ends up recovering and getting out) then their rights should be restored to them the same as any adult.

This would also require a cout of law to impose such a restriction and not simply a psychiatrist to say the person is mentally ill. If there's no court appointed restriction then there's no carte blanche restriction on the individual. Besides, it's not like most people would be willing to sell a gun to someone who seems not right in the head to such an extent that the law would prohibit them from owning a gun.
 

Aknazer

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Right back to having 2 classes of people - the ones who are good enough to have their rights & the ones who aren't (for whatever reason).

We already have this though, it's called minors and adults. And personally I'm fine with that. I would also be fine if a court-of-law were to determine that someone is still of a mental capacity of a minor much like how we have minors who get tried as adults.

But being ruled one is still a "minor" should require an act of court, as opposed to having to "prove" to the government that one is qualified to be an adult.
 

since9

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Jan 14, 2010
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I think the issue we're discussing here isn't "sanity," but "mental stability and ability" of a sufficient degree to where the individual poses no unlawful threat to themselves or society at large. I pose a HUGE threat to criminals, but only if those who choose to put themselves into the few legal situations, threatening life, limb, and property, where I would then have the right to use deadly force to stop the threat. Whatever threat I pose, it's lawful.

The problem with mental stability and ability, whether it's a hard-wired issue within the brain (schitzophrenia), induced by situational/social factors (PTSD), chemicals (alcohol, drugs, medication), fatigue/alertness, and just plain old education/common sense, is that it is not a black and white issue. It's a continuum, and most of us are adversely affected by at least one of the above subsets of factors, if not two. The question is, "to what extent?" Am I affected to the extent that it will adversely affect my own safety or safety to that of others?

Living alone in an apartment and in a State with a solid Castle Law, my only real concern is whether or not I'm mentally/physically capable of safely handling a firearm. At least at night, where an accidental discharge could injure or kill a neighbor. Still, during that time, if someone enters my apartment while I'm sleeping, they're in serious risk of catching lead. During the daytime, I have to consider the likelihood one of the maintenance workers might knock on my door and, if I'm in the BA/shower, may enter without my knowing about it! I'm obviously not going start firing without seeing who it is. Furthermore, while my son is visiting, I know he sometimes gets up in the middle of the night, so I want to make sure he's safe, too.

I'd rather take a bullet than put one into someone who is innocent. Thus, if I have any doubts about my own ability to safely be in possession of a firearm, my firearm stays in the car, stays at home, or even gets locked in the safe.

Thing of it is, I'm not a mental health professional, and while I know there are many factors that can result in a person firing on someone who is innocent, I'm not qualified to judge when that might be. The problem is, I'm not so sure they are, either, except in clear-cut cases. If one has to err, on what side should they err? On the side of the gun-owner's right to keep and bear arms? Or on the side of the general citizen's right to be secure in their persons? Thing of it is, "the right to be secure in their persons" is a misappropriation from the Fourth Amendment, which states: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures..." Meanwhile, "security of the person is a basic entitlement guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations in 1948." - Source. It is NOT a Constitutional right. Where it is found is in the Declaration of Independence's "right to life" clause. That's about it, although countless laws on the books about the various forms of murder, manslaughter, and mayhem make it clear that harming another human being without lawful authority is bad ju-ju.

My gut feeling is that the RKBA should be afforded to all adults and denied only to those adults who by virtue of their felonious or mentally aberrant choices of behavior, have put themselves into a category that poses "a substantial and unlawful threat to themselves or society at large."

Now the question becomes, "What's substantial?" Felony criminals comprise less than 5% of the population yet are more than 20 times (that's 2,000%) more likely to cause harm to your average citizen. So what should be the standard? The same increase in risk as for your average criminal? Half that? Twice that? Sadly, I don't think we can accurately predict it.

On the other hand, I don't think we should even try. Life itself is not without risk. I have no problem telling someone who committed armed robbery, "That's it - you forfeited your RKBA when you made the bad choice to rob the liquor store at gunpoint." Perhaps if there were extenuating circumstances (being forced/coerced to hold the gun by gang members) and a lengthy record clean of criminal activity while full of progress (degree, success in business, etc.), I'd be willing to reinstate the fellow's 2A rights.

Meanwhile, I have very serious reservations about telling someone, "Based on your pattern of lawful but risky behavior in college, we feel you're at elevated risk of mental stability and therefore pose an increased risk of being a threat to life and limb in the future." There will always be people among us who are mentally unstable. That's just life. If their observed behavior i.e. injuring or killing people says they're a threat to society, then they should be treated as a potential threat. But to say someone might be a threat and reduce their rights based on a probability, my own thought on this approach is that it is itself a bit insane.
 
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XD40coyote

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Oct 29, 2007
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Most mentally ill people are not violent, but I can see a restriction for those who have disassosiative states where they go into a state that fits the legal definition of "insanity, not fit for trail", which is quite specific. Severe scitzophrenia, severe bipolar, moderate to severe scitzoaffective, states of psychoses, dementia, and brain damage mimicing any of the above. Multiple personality disorder if it has landed the person an involuntary and thus are adjudicated mentally unfit. In general people with any of the above who behave violently tend to get into trouble and end up as involuntaries/adjudicated. If it's their first time going nutso violent and they have a gun they had lawfully purchased before, then that is when the sheepdogs/cattledogs/opencarrylibertarians go onto action. It is why more good people need to carry and to have the mindset to be able to take down the now-and-then person who "slips through the cracks". Those who sell guns, wether gun store, gun show, or FF private sale where allowed, need to be ethical and keen on who they sell too. The person may pass the BG check, but are they behaving very oddly? You can refuse to sell to someone if something doesn't seem right.

There was the mentally ill guy who had a shooting rampage in WA in the mall, and the ccw person who tried to reason with him. Don't try to reason, just try to stop them. The ccw guy ended up in a wheelchair the rest of his life due to lack of proper mindset ( though he may have been killed anyway even with proper mindset, but he'd be a real hero then). You can't reason with someone hellbent on such destruction. Just keep in mind Jarred Loughner's mug shot. He looks really sane in it, doesn't he? At least the people there tackled him when he tried to reload, and one ccw guy did get there right at that moment ( I wonder if he would have done his rampage had a couple OCers been standing around the edge of that small crowd?).
 

DocWalker

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( I wonder if he would have done his rampage had a couple OCers been standing around the edge of that small crowd?).

Don't you know the anti's would all say that the crazy shooter would skillfully take out all the COers FIRST no matter if there where 20 OCers......sarcasm

Another flaw to your option is that the event you reference happened in a mall, most malls are GFZ...so there would be no OCers and no shooter to begin with...you must be mistaken this event in a mall could never happen since the shooter would not be autherized to have a gun in the mall..

EVEN MORE SARCASM.....
 
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