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Thread: This is an example of MOC leadership?

  1. #1
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    This is an example of MOC leadership?

    Hi, I'm new to the site. I have friends and family who are both members of Michigan Open Carry and they have talked to me about joining. I read the site very regularly and have often found it a great source of information. But today, after reading some threads, I decided that I will never give a dime of my hard earned money to MOC. I've registered on this site and am making my first post to tell you why.

    Scot623 - Aren't you an officer of MOC? I wonder why it is that you are so hypocritical? You pick and choose who you want to be nice to and offer helpful information to. Then others you ridicule and offend. I have read many posts from you over the past few months, and honestly, you just seem bitter. Did someone pee in your Wheaties? In the bank oc thread RVD was asking a legitimate question. One that I'm sure would be useful to others besides him, but instead of offering an answer to the question, you call him out for something that happened in the past and say he shouldn't carry? How in the world was that helpful??

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hp?102322-bank

    Then there is how you treat Stainless. Yes, I've read about some not great choices he has made. It's really hard not to because you and your cronies sure won't let him forget. But at least he comes on the boards and offers information to people. He doesn't pick and choose who he feels is worthy of his knowledge and ridicule the rest. You try so hard to bully him out of this site and that sad thing is, I think he is actually a better person than you are. When he made a post that you didn't agree with, you ripped him apart and plastered his full name and address on the board. But when the previous president of this organization (MOC) was on the news for having mental health issues and SIX ppos against him, Stainless didn't plaster his name and address all over anywhere. In fact, he posted on the board that he hoped everything worked out for that person. You could take some pointers in how to be a good person from him (Stainless, not the guy with SIX ppos)

    I have consistently seen you post negative and degrading posts to people who you obviously don't deem "worthy" of your time. I've seen you break the below rule on numerous occasions.
    (9) HATE IS NOT WELCOME HERE: Any posts attacking others based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity, or anything other than opposition to gun rights is NOT WELCOME HERE! We reserve the right to impose immediate bans for such behavior.

    HATE IS NOT WELCOME HERE......seems pretty simple to me, but yet an officer can't even follow that simple rule?

    I would think that as an officer of MOC, you would not only hold yourself to a higher standard as far as the law goes, but you would actually want to be a decent human being. Guess not.

    Now I'm sure this post will be removed or I will get bashed my NCG...whatever and a few others who obviously can't have a thought independent of you, but I felt that you should know how people outside your little "click" actually feel. I'm sure I am not the only person who comes to these boards for info and is appalled by the posts that someone who is supposed to be a "leader" posts.

    To - Dr Todd, Jared, Stainless, RVD and the many others who share their knowledge with everyone freely without considering their "worthiness" first, I THANK YOU!

    Peace,
    Glock Lady

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I'm not here to argue but I would like to clear something up. It's not that Scot told him not to carry at all but that he shouldn't carry unless he knows the laws very well. And I agree with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Didn't you get into a dust up about carrying on a college campus? You should know the firearm laws forward and backward. If not, you shouldn't be carrying yet.
    And in RVD's defense he never actually carried on campus. He talked to the police about it but as it turns out he could not do then they made a big deal about him having an empty holster and mag pouch.

    Also Glock_Lady should be reminded of this rule
    (9) HATE IS NOT WELCOME HERE: Any posts attacking others based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity, or anything other than opposition to gun rights is NOT WELCOME HERE! We reserve the right to impose immediate bans for such behavior.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Nice, well thought out intro Glock_lady. Appreciate the personal insight.

    It is decidedly better to stick to the facts, than to allow personal prejudice and create dissension.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  4. #4
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Not to mention it is also against the rules of this site to bash other gun rights orgs...

    Now sometimes we " experienced OCers come off as short, grumpy gruff... whatever" there is a reason... we have seen people get themselves into a mess of trouble by not knowing the laws and making bad decisions. We want to keep them from doing that so sometimes we bark as we have answered the question a million times. Not to mention the fact that if they would read the stickies and MCL's they would know the answer to the question already.

    As for the issue with the individual you feel is being picked on... well there is a history of fail that is very extensive... and very little learning from it.

    I would suggest you reserve judgement until you get a feel for some of the history around here.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Nice, well thought out intro Glock_lady.
    Love your sarcasm.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Love your sarcasm.
    Who? Me?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Welcome Glock Lady! If You've come here for OC info and education,this is a great place for that.Even though the tit for tats that go on here from time to time may be detrimental to newcomers,I hope You can be patient enough to get the info You're looking for and ignore the youngsters at play.Everyone has their shortcomings! CARRY ON!
    Last edited by hamaneggs; 04-28-2012 at 12:15 PM.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard! Nice to see another intelligent, passionate person joining us, and it's really nice to see another woman.
    (Esp. one with the good taste to like Glocks.)

    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon
    I would suggest you reserve judgement until you get a feel for some of the history around here.
    She says she's read the boards for a while.
    And obviously she's picked up on a pattern of behaviour which bothers her.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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    Thanks GlockLady, you are welcome here, and I hope you stay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Not to mention it is also against the rules of this site to bash other gun rights orgs...

    Now sometimes we " experienced OCers come off as short, grumpy gruff... whatever" there is a reason... we have seen people get themselves into a mess of trouble by not knowing the laws and making bad decisions. We want to keep them from doing that so sometimes we bark as we have answered the question a million times. Not to mention the fact that if they would read the stickies and MCL's they would know the answer to the question already.

    As for the issue with the individual you feel is being picked on... well there is a history of fail that is very extensive... and very little learning from it.

    I would suggest you reserve judgement until you get a feel for some of the history around here.
    Nice try, she wasnt taking pot shots at MOC or OCDO, she was pointing out an obvious, and detrimental attitude of someone on here, addressing the offensive actions more than attacking the person. Her points were articulate and accurate.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 04-28-2012 at 12:45 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Mr. Harris is a MOC's BoD member who has served with dedication and distinction. Not only has he poured in hundreds of hours of his own time to run seminars, organize dinners and other activities to promote open carry in Michigan -- he is also the first board member to have almost served his entire term.

    Mr. Harris is my number one volunteer. I am sorry you feel about him the way you do. If that is how you feel, I understand that you may not want to be a part of the organization.

    I wish you the best in your path.

    Signed,

    Current MOC President with no PPOs.
    Last edited by TheQ; 04-28-2012 at 11:34 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Q, you and GlockLady are both correct.

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    The only thing I would have to say, aside from while acting like a mature adult we refrain from personal attacks and attacks against other organization based on the actions of one individual, if you think MOC could be ran better....run for a leadership position.

    Also the members of MOC and its leadership are not responsible for the actions of an individual, a fact people often forget. As with any organization they advocate acting maturely and responsibly since any member is seen as a representative of the org. However they cannot tell someone how to act, just as employer can't tell you what to do off the clock.

    However coming onto the forum and bashing an organization and an individual instead of taking it up with the individual or the organization they are associated with is shameful on your behalf. I welcome you to the forums and appreciate having another fellow ocer on board but I would just ask that in this situation you try to conduct yourself more professionally and maturely
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock_lady View Post
    Hi, I'm new to the site. ~~ snip ~~
    Peace,
    Glock Lady
    Let me offer my own personal Welcome to you Glock Lady, even though for the most part I am still a newbe on this board.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Welcome Glock Lady! If You've come here for OC info and education,this is a great place for that.~~ snip ~~ I hope You can be patient enough to get the info You're looking for and ignore the youngsters at play. Everyone has their shortcomings! CARRY ON!
    I will agree that ODCO is a good if not Great place for finding Open Carry info and am grateful to have finally found my way to this site.

    I do find myself needing to ask you about something, though..
    To Whom are you referring to with your youngsters comment?
    * Those who are completely new to OC and to OCDO;
    * Those who have quietly carried for years that are simply new to ODCO;
    * Those who have only OCd as long as they have been members of OCDO;
    or
    * Those who are chronologically not far along in life itself?
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    What I hope we all can agree on is this: we will have disagreements, this is a certainty, but at the end of the day we all support civil rights and freedoms, so let us remember when humanly possible - to cut the other guy/gal some slack. :-) Hell, I have been less than kind a few times myself. I shall do my very best to take the high road. Carry on

    Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    However coming onto the forum and bashing an organization and an individual instead of taking it up with the individual or the organization they are associated with is shameful on your behalf. I welcome you to the forums and appreciate having another fellow ocer on board but I would just ask that in this situation you try to conduct yourself more professionally and maturely
    Where did she specifically "bash" MOC? She asked a question, which I believe was meant to point out that an individual's conduct reflects poorly on his group. This is simply a fact of life; groups are judged by their membership.

    She did point out, specifically, an individual's perceived shortcomings. That is not bashing, either.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
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    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Just checking in. Talk amongst yourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Where did she specifically "bash" MOC? She asked a question, which I believe was meant to point out that an individual's conduct reflects poorly on his group. This is simply a fact of life; groups are judged by their membership.

    She did point out, specifically, an individual's perceived shortcomings. That is not bashing, either.
    Absolutely.

    Rob, that was a pretty frigging arrogant statement. Thank you for helping her make her point.

  19. #19
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Just checking in. Talk amongst yourselves.
    Indeed?
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  20. #20
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Lady_Glock,you say you have friends and Family that are members of MOC.
    Why haven't they complained about the way scot623 represents MOC over on the MOC website?
    I haven't seen any post over on the MOC website about this.
    If there is such a thread please post a link so I can check it out,Thanks


    I for one think Rob does a great Job representing MOC, He's very articulate and
    very knowledgeable on the do's and don'ts of Open Carry.

    In regards to RVD ,I agree with xmanhockey7's post
    "It's not that Scot23 told him not to carry at all but that he shouldn't carry unless he knows the laws very well"
    (Because we don't want to see him get jammed up by the Police)is how I took that comment

    In regards to treatment of other posters ( not naming anyone)
    Carrying a firearm is a serious responsibility. And some people are just not responsible
    enough to be carrying a firearm.I believe Rob calls it like he sees it. I myself like that in a leader
    no sense in sugar coating it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Scott623 can be very firm in his beliefs and he works as hard or harder for gun rights than many people I know. His opinions about some members here is well founded, the bad behaviour of a few do reflect on all of us. Not just OC'rs but all gun owners. He voices his opinions with great vigor sometimes, also his sarcastic nature can be miss-read. Without spending time with him you may miss the nuances of that sarcastic nature. He "calls them like he sees'em" and is right more often than not. Also him being in a leadership position does bring him increased scrutiny from people, but he shouldn't be judged so harshly, his attitude toward the expanse and deregulation of harsh gun laws should be what hes judged by.

    My 2 cents, plus a penny.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  22. #22
    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Over the past few years I have lost a lot of respect for a few individuals due to unrelenting public attacks against other members. It seems that sometimes a newb's thread with a valid question soon turns into a roast of another member. I can understand someone new coming in and getting a bad taste in their mouth. Take it for what it's worth...
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Been patiently waiting to allow some balance, expressing responsible thoughts to mitigate any dissension. We are of the same brotherhood are we not.

    Seems a good time to point out rule #12, which applies equally to the principals of such groups.
    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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