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Thread: I know...but this is a CC question

  1. #1
    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    I know...but this is a CC question

    I let my Missouri permit lapse because I had gotten my Florida permit....7yrs instead of three....but did I read somewhere the state will recognize training received even back 7 years (or whatever it was) ago...? Basically that I don't have to go through with it again...and what about SIS's?
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Certificate is good... aka will be good retro active pending the passage of the bill. As far as I am aware which is a little more than some, no one has been refused in any county yet on an old certificate, but it COULD happen under the new wording from last year.

    SIS is a killer in mo. I suppose it depends on what it is for, but the law reads plead guilty to or was convicted of a misdemeanor, if it carries a penalty of one year or more... and an SIS is a guilty plea.

    I am sure hoff has the statute at his finger tips and may come along and paste it for us.

    A lot of folks fall under the misconception that an SIS served flawlessly drops from their record, it does not and will stop a Missouri permit depending upon what it is for sir.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    what if the sis was over 5yrs ago
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    what if the sis was over 5yrs ago
    No difference in the state of MO.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    I have nothng to hide....dui....but it has to be 2 in the last five years correct?
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    I have nothng to hide....dui....but it has to be 2 in the last five years correct?
    571.101.3

    (3) Has not been convicted of, pled guilty to or entered a plea of nolo contendere to one or more misdemeanor offenses involving crimes of violence within a five-year period immediately preceding application for a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement or if the applicant has not been convicted of two or more misdemeanor offenses involving driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs or the possession or abuse of a controlled substance within a five-year period immediately preceding application for a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement;
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    cool beans.....my biggest concern was the "qualification"....so not passed yet?
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    cool beans.....my biggest concern was the "qualification"....so not passed yet?
    Grandfathering of old qualifications became unclear after last year's BS by the boys in Columbia and the new round count required. It has been suggested that as of 8-31-2011 the classes not having the new requirement of 140 rounds might not be accepted for new or renewals.

    As of this date I have not heard about a single county refusing the old certificates, however there is pending legislation to assure it can never happen. I doubt you will see such an issue out of the St. Charles Sheriff. It might take longer because of the SIS and they may want to get info on the OKLAHOMA bs to make sure it is disposed of, however I do not see anything myself that says you should not apply.

    Legislative session this round on gun rights is REAL screwy, bunch of back handed deals, self preservation and a VERY weak support for the gun rights in MO, there is no guarantee at all that even that will pass. Too many folks running their mouths and way way too little support to predict anything beyond it is more likely than not any of them will be unknown until the week of May 14 at the earliest, that is what my money is on anyway!

    I would go for it now, before that law passes or fails if I were in your shoes, if it fails, I would not be surprised to see some sheriff's refuse them just to be a pain, just like they refused to issue them and had to be forced by the courts to do so.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    See your point....thanks
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Strike that, actually it looks like they F'ed that up too. Since you stated yours is EXPIRED, you may indeed have to retrain if it passes!

    Bill 1045 proposed changes:

    7. The amendments to this section as enacted by senate substitute no. 2 for senate committee substitute for house committee substitute for house bill nos 294, 123, 125, 113, 271 & 215, ninety-sixth general assembly, first regular session, shall only apply to applications submitted after August 28, 2011, for a new concealed carry endorsement or for a new concealed carry endorsement subsequent to the expiration of a previously issued concealed carry endorsement, and shall not apply to renewals of unexpired endorsements issued prior to August 28, 2011.

    Looks like better sooner than later applies.

    Pretty standard BS for this year really. I had not paid much attention to it myself. Looks like another way for the trainers to get an additional 100 bucks out of folks as if the difference in your skills and knowledge between now and when yours expired...good grief!
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    dang the luck.....I don't need it persay....but if you look at what is going on in New Mexico.....who knows!
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    LMTD,

    What is this SIS’s your guys are referring to?

    2 months ago I wrote a post asking some questions on the Missouri CCW as I had my Utah permit expiring and a new requirement of Utah was to have the Resident permit from the state of residency.

    Well I had a new class all set up!


    For laughs I called the instructor I took my course with in 2007. He said come(For free) in and fire the additional rounds required by the updated law and he would give me a letter stating that I had met the updated requirements under the current law.

    Anyway long story short…………….. After getting the letter and going downtown to apply for Missouri permit.

    They never even asked for the letter meeting the new requirements as of August 28, 2011. I even asked him if he wanted to see it and he said “NO” ----Old certificate should be good! In STL County anyway

    All they wanted to see was the original certificate of training
    .

    I filled out the form They took fingerprints, I pay’d the fees, and about 16 days later I got the letter in mail saying to return downtown to pick up paper and took it to drivers license bureau and permit issued.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicworkman View Post
    LMTD,

    What is this SIS’s your guys are referring to?
    Suspended Imposition of Sentence, a guilty plea to a crime of various sorts and the defendant is given an SIS of say 2 years unsupervised probation, if they do not repeat offend at the end of probation they are free. If they violate during that period, they are then possibly going to serve the 2 years in jail. It is probation with the threat of jail on top of it so to speak.

    A lot of persons fall under the false assumption that an SIS is automatically expunged (removed from record) which is not true, they are not and remain for ever unless someone chooses to try and get them expunged which can and does happen.

    In many CCW states the language is "convicted of a crime" so to speak but in MO language it is "convicted of or plead guilty to a crime that carries a sentence of 1 year or more" That means if the crime COULD sentence a person to a year, even if they only got 15 days, it can still hold them up from getting a CCW. Over on the MSSA site for the last several years there have been many a person who did the "bar fight" assault charge or various other fairly tame criminal activity, plead to an SIS and find that 30 years later in their 50's they can not obtain a permit from the state of MO.

    As he put it forward, Zeke got a DUI, that carries a sentence in MO of over one year, though rarely handed out, it still counts. In many cases a 1st time offender such as Zeke is advised to take a plea deal SIS 1 year, unsupervised probation, booze classes and sr22 insurance and if they do not re-offend they are free to go. There are provisions within the CCW laws for this offense since it is a common one that prevent one DUI from preventing a CCW permit like other SIS convictions might aka assault etc.

    Sounds like a double edged sword for Zeke, his permit expired during probation perhaps aka not eligible for renewal, he obtained an OOS, he wants to renew the MO but last year the rules changed, this year they are changing them again and IMHO from what I read, assuming the bill passes into law, if he does not get it done prior to 8-31-2012 he will indeed have to pay for and re-certify. As it sits right now, I do not know of any sheriffs doing this, just as you said, yours did not require it, I have heard of no others that do either, but according to the bad bill in session right now, they will have to for new and EXPIRED permits.

    That is important to know because I am sure I am not the only person on this board to ever forget to renew a drivers license or plate and if you forget your CCW and it is from the old requirements, they may well force you to obtain a new training certificate that is dated post 8-31-2011.

    Wish I had a magic wand cause I would wave it, leave the permitting system in place for those who applied, but there would be no permit required to ccw or oc through out the state of mo and any muni that left a law on the books for intimidation purposes would be fined 2,500 bucks per law, per day until they had properly informed the citizens that 2a rights were welcome at all levels and would exclude very few places, court houses, jails and perhaps mental health facilities.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    For some reason I cannot get on the site, but if I am not mistaken it also states that you cannot have two DUI in the last five years...SIS or otherwise,,,,therefore I should be eligible...
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    For some reason I cannot get on the site, but if I am not mistaken it also states that you cannot have two DUI in the last five years...SIS or otherwise,,,,therefore I should be eligible...
    That is correct Zeke, it is posted in about the fourth post down from rsmo 571.

    Yous should be good to go if you act before August 31 this year, after that, if the bill passes, you are likely to have to retrain because your permit is expired, has nothing to do with the SIS that I can see. Only a lawyer can answer for sure, but I see nothing preventing it and 100 bucks for the permit is less than the consult.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    I have plead guilty to a felony receiving property charge when i was younger. Took an SIS . I am also forced to get an OOS permit. I got my UTAH before they stopped non-residents from getting a permit and also carry a Arizona.

    It is horse **** that pleading guilty will stop you from getting a permit for the rest of your life. but until that gets changed...stuck with an OOS.

    basically you plead guilty to a crime punishable by 1 yr in jail, your finished. (from what i understand)
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    It is horse **** that pleading guilty will stop you from getting a permit for the rest of your life. but until that gets changed...stuck with an OOS.

    basically you plead guilty to a crime punishable by 1 yr in jail, your finished. (from what i understand)
    and it is the only thing that I can say gets more resistance to change than OC from Missouri gun advocates. There is almost no support what so ever to change it and if you mention it, you get branded for doing so, want to see the burn marks?
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Grandfathering of old qualifications became unclear after last year's BS by the boys in Columbia and the new round count required. It has been suggested that as of 8-31-2011 the classes not having the new requirement of 140 rounds might not be accepted for new or renewals.

    As of this date I have not heard about a single county refusing the old certificates, however there is pending legislation to assure it can never happen. I doubt you will see such an issue out of the St. Charles Sheriff. It might take longer because of the SIS and they may want to get info on the OKLAHOMA bs to make sure it is disposed of, however I do not see anything myself that says you should not apply.

    Legislative session this round on gun rights is REAL screwy, bunch of back handed deals, self preservation and a VERY weak support for the gun rights in MO, there is no guarantee at all that even that will pass. Too many folks running their mouths and way way too little support to predict anything beyond it is more likely than not any of them will be unknown until the week of May 14 at the earliest, that is what my money is on anyway!

    I would go for it now, before that law passes or fails if I were in your shoes, if it fails, I would not be surprised to see some sheriff's refuse them just to be a pain, just like they refused to issue them and had to be forced by the courts to do so.
    EVERY COUNTY I have my credentials on file with (46 at last count) will NOT accept any course completion certificate for a new applicant, from a class that did not require the student to fire 140 rounds as per the new requirement in RSMO 571.111.2 (9) and (10). In fact, I don't know of any county that will accept training credentials from a new applicant from a class that did not require the student to fire at least 140 rounds as per the statutory requirement (it would actually be unlawful for any sheriff to accept sub-par training credentials).

    As to the OP, if you let your MO CCW lapse more than 6 months past the expiration date, you will have to start the process over again, ie: you become a new applicant. That means that you will have to comply with the training requirements that are in effect on the day that you apply. If the training class you took did not require you to fire 140 rounds of ammunition, as per the CURRENT requirements in RSMO 571.111.2 (9) and (10), it will NOT be sufficient to obtain a new endorsement. You will either have to complete a new course, or go back to your previous instructor and complete the updated requirements and get a new course completion certificate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    EVERY COUNTY I have my credentials on file with (46 at last count) will NOT accept any course completion certificate for a new applicant, from a class that did not require the student to fire 140 rounds as per the new requirement in RSMO 571.111.2 (9) and (10). In fact, I don't know of any county that will accept training credentials from a new applicant from a class that did not require the student to fire at least 140 rounds as per the statutory requirement (it would actually be unlawful for any sheriff to accept sub-par training credentials).

    As to the OP, if you let your MO CCW lapse more than 6 months past the expiration date, you will have to start the process over again, ie: you become a new applicant. That means that you will have to comply with the training requirements that are in effect on the day that you apply. If the training class you took did not require you to fire 140 rounds of ammunition, as per the CURRENT requirements in RSMO 571.111.2 (9) and (10), it will NOT be sufficient to obtain a new endorsement. You will either have to complete a new course, or go back to your previous instructor and complete the updated requirements and get a new course completion certificate.
    I meant old certificates for RENEWAL. I know of no county at all that is accepting the old ones for new applicants after 8-31-2011 when the law went into effect.

    Standard issue BS politics, but it is what it is and you always tend to explain it much better than I.

    hope life is treating you well, ain't seen you posting a lot lately.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    I meant old certificates for RENEWAL. I know of no county at all that is accepting the old ones for new applicants after 8-31-2011 when the law went into effect.

    Standard issue BS politics, but it is what it is and you always tend to explain it much better than I.

    hope life is treating you well, ain't seen you posting a lot lately.
    Ah. Okay. Yes, they HAVE to accept them for renewals. Sorry I misunderstood you......

    Yeah, been kinda busy. Been teaching a lot of classes as of late it seems (which is a good thing, IMO). At least interest in firearms seems to be running steadily high. Hope all is well for you too!

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