Firearms at Nevada State Parks/Recreation Areas

What???

Vegassteve said:

NO NO NO NO NO. Red Rock is a special conservation area that has its on rules. Do a search on here and you will find it. You may open carry Unloaded or CC ONLY UNLOADED in Red Rock. And you can NOT carry even unloaded in the buildings.

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Your response is absolutely incorrect. Red Rock is managed by the BLM, and the BLM enforces firearms laws according to the laws of each individual state. You may open carry or conceal carry, chambered, anywhere in Red Rock WITH the exception of buildings where there are federal employees. Get your facts straight.

I hike and ALWAYS carry in Red Rock.

gunn rights said:

Your response is absolutely incorrect. Red Rock is managed by the BLM, and the BLM enforces firearms laws according to the laws of each individual state. You may open carry or conceal carry, chambered, anywhere in Red Rock WITH the exception of buildings where there are federal employees. Get your facts straight.

I hike and ALWAYS carry in Red Rock.

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Not questioning what you have done, but that alone does not establish what is legal.

Maybe someone can explain this in greater detail: "additional weapons restrictions and definitions apply in Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area."
I realize this reference page is regarding target shooting, but find no info on what "additional weapons restrictions" there might be.
http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_programs/lvfo_recreation/target_shooting_and.html

gunn rights said:

Your response is absolutely incorrect. Red Rock is managed by the BLM, and the BLM enforces firearms laws according to the laws of each individual state. You may open carry or conceal carry, chambered, anywhere in Red Rock WITH the exception of buildings where there are federal employees. Get your facts straight.

I hike and ALWAYS carry in Red Rock.

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My facts are CORRECT because I used facts.

NO my response is absolutely CORRECT. See this link and the email below.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...les.Par.11865.File.dat/Red Rock Sup Rules.pdf

Hello Steve,

Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area is not part of the National Park Service (even though it honors the National Park Pass system of passes for entrance fees) it is part of the Bureau of Land Management. On the majority of BLM lands within Nevada a person can open carry as long as he/she follows all federal and state laws. Red Rock Canyon NCA has additional regulations which prohibit the possession of a loaded firearm UNLESS you are legally hunting in areas where hunting is allowed. A person with a concealed weapons permit cannot carry a loaded weapon within Red Rock Canyon NCA; however if the person is travelling through Red Rock on the highway it's not an issue UNLESS the person is stopped by an officer (say for speeding) and DOES NOT state that they are carrying a concealed weapon. If BLM officials are telling you something different please let me know who they are because this information needs to be consistent. Also be aware that legislation for National Park Service lands applies to National Park Service Lands or lands that are specified in the specific legislation and there are many different federal lands with varying jurisdictions and regulations (i.e. Bureau of Land Management, US Forest Service, Nat'l Park Service, US Fish & Wildlife, Bureau of Reclamation & also the military areas).

Please see this attached link and in particular the link for Red Rock Supplementary Rules. The section you are interested is on the fourth page under section 3.2 Weapons.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/...gulations.html

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Robert Mitsuyasu
Supervisor Law Enforcement Ranger
Southern Nevada District Office
(702) 622 5757

Vegassteve said:

My facts are CORRECT because I used facts.

NO my response is absolutely CORRECT. See this link and the email below.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...les.Par.11865.File.dat/Red Rock Sup Rules.pdf

Hello Steve,

Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area is not part of the National Park Service (even though it honors the National Park Pass system of passes for entrance fees) it is part of the Bureau of Land Management. On the majority of BLM lands within Nevada a person can open carry as long as he/she follows all federal and state laws. Red Rock Canyon NCA has additional regulations which prohibit the possession of a loaded firearm UNLESS you are legally hunting in areas where hunting is allowed. A person with a concealed weapons permit cannot carry a loaded weapon within Red Rock Canyon NCA; however if the person is travelling through Red Rock on the highway it's not an issue UNLESS the person is stopped by an officer (say for speeding) and DOES NOT state that they are carrying a concealed weapon. If BLM officials are telling you something different please let me know who they are because this information needs to be consistent. Also be aware that legislation for National Park Service lands applies to National Park Service Lands or lands that are specified in the specific legislation and there are many different federal lands with varying jurisdictions and regulations (i.e. Bureau of Land Management, US Forest Service, Nat'l Park Service, US Fish & Wildlife, Bureau of Reclamation & also the military areas).

Please see this attached link and in particular the link for Red Rock Supplementary Rules. The section you are interested is on the fourth page under section 3.2 Weapons.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/...gulations.html

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Robert Mitsuyasu
Supervisor Law Enforcement Ranger
Southern Nevada District Office
(702) 622 5757

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Mitsuyasu is much better informed than the average bear (pun intended). There is a complete and total difference in authority and subsequently rules on lands operated by different federal agencies. It is extremely important that we know which agency is responsible for the particular area that we plan to visit. The old adage "trust but confirm" cannot be stressed too much. A relevant cite/law (in writing) is IMO the only acceptable response - not an answer from a ranger (even a supervisor), not a publication from 1993 (too much can change in 10 years) and most certainly not the advice of a friend - all of these may point you in the right direction, but by themselves are not definitive and subject to error or omission.

The conditions/rules that user/poster gunn rights describes are strangely precisely those applicable national parks and wildlife refuges. Those rules originated from the inclusion of the Credit Cardholders' Act of 2009 wherein NPS would follow the laws of state parks for the state in which the NPS land is located. There are no other federal agencies following this mandate.

You, Vegassteve, may have provided what is needed to resolve this issue, but the link in the range's response is broken (404 error)(http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/...gulations.html) - cannot therefore make any determination.

Think that you are almost to the point of determining the source and consequentially the official governing rule.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo..._rock_nca/recreation/target_shooting_and.html

Try that link.

I don't claim to be an "expert" on this topic.

But do you think NRS Ch 328 is not germane to this discussion?

In view of the fact the Nevada Legislature reserves for itself the right to regulate firearms in Nevada, isn't jurisdiction an issue?

Perhaps I'm missing something.

varminter22 said:

I don't claim to be an "expert" on this topic.

But do you think NRS Ch 328 is not germane to this discussion?

In view of the fact the Nevada Legislature reserves for itself the right to regulate firearms in Nevada, isn't jurisdiction an issue?

Perhaps I'm missing something.

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There should be no confusion, no conflict. If the property is owned by any agency of the federal government, then that state has no say how that property is operated.

If it were otherwise, then the state could direct and enforce laws/rules according to their will on military installations located within the state borders.

Grapeshot said:

Think that you are almost to the point of determining the source and consequentially the official governing rule.

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Odd the link worked last night. Does not work today. BUT the first link I posted goes right to the law. The link the ranger gave me in the email led to a BLM page that then led to the top link I posted before his email. Which does indeed open to the law he cites. We have been over this several times on this forum with more than me providing the cite.

varminter22 said:

I don't claim to be an "expert" on this topic.

But do you think NRS Ch 328 is not germane to this discussion?

In view of the fact the Nevada Legislature reserves for itself the right to regulate firearms in Nevada, isn't jurisdiction an issue?

Perhaps I'm missing something.

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328.075 would be the place to start. We would need to dig and see if the rules were followed in that part.

Until then it would seem best to abide by the law in this case, unless you have the time and money to fight. Or a group to help us. I dont have the time or money and so far no group as shown a interest to help any of us. Maybe as Don Turner is fond of saying," test it out and see".

Grapeshot said:

There should be no confusion, no conflict. If the property is owned by any agency of the federal government, then that state has no say how that property is operated.

If it were otherwise, then the state could direct and enforce laws/rules according to their will on military installations located within the state borders.

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No offense, sir, but NO. This is Nevada; not Chesterfield County, Virginia.

In Nevada, the state CAN enforce laws on federal property and military installations where the state has not officially/formally ceded jurisdiction.

In Churchill County, for example, where I live, the feds have NOT one square inch of ground wherein they have jurisdiction. And that includes the Naval Air Station located here. The sheriff can (and does when appropriate) enter the NAS at any time he deems necessary. Another example is Sand Mountain rec area; our sheriff has entered into an agreement with the BLM giving the BLM limited jurisdiction, however more serious offenses, including DUI, etc, remain the under the jurisdiction of our county sheriff.

You're right, there "should be" no confusion, no conflict. But that obviously is not the case.

If you peruse NRS Ch 328, you'll note the Clark County location(s) wherein the state of Nevada has ceded jurisdiction.

How does this all tie together regarding the topic here? That is the question.

varminter22 said:

No offense, sir, but NO. This is Nevada; not Chesterfield County, Virginia.

In Nevada, that is exactly the case. In Churchill County, for example, where I live, the feds have NOT one square inch of ground wherein they have jurisdiction. And that includes the Naval Air Station located here. The sheriff can (and does when appropriate) enter the NAS at any time he deems necessary. Another example is Sand Mountain rec area; our sheriff has entered into an agreement with the BLM giving the BLM limited jurisdiction, eg fender bender with a BLM vehicle, however more serious offenses, including DUI, etc, remain the under the jurisdiction of our county sheriff.

You're right, there "should be" no confusion, no conflict. But that obviously is not the case.

If you peruse NRS Ch 328, you'll note the Clark County location(s) wherein the state of Nevada has ceded jurisdiction.

How does this all tie together regarding the original post? That is the question.

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This page is another start. http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_programs/blm_special_areas/red_rock_nca.html

We would need the 1990 special legislation. Which I am now searching for.

So we could open carry at the Naval station?

Here is where the feds got the land. http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...Par.47036.File.dat/Appendices-Legislation.pdf

Have not found the Nevada side of things yet though.

I have found a few pages that cite US law and the lands and they point to certain land acts etc for obtaining the land.
United States Code, 2006, V. 9, Title 16, Conservation, Sections 1-785

How do they jibe with the NRS? Not sure I am not a lawyer. Until such time as someone could do the complete law research it would seem the rules are in effect.

We hike often in the canyon and I open carry my rock, err unloaded pistol with mags on the side. Never had a issue. I know others say they carry loaded and never had the issue. If they ever do I guess they have the time and money to fight it. At tis point I dont.

Vegassteve said:

So we could open carry at the Naval station?

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I'm not saying that at all.

I'm not even saying NRS Ch 328 is 100% applicable to the issue at hand. Just something to be aware of and investigate. It may, or may not, be germane/helpful.

Ownership and jurisdiction appear to be two different/separate issues.

I have an idea. Why don't we kick the Federal Government out of NV altogether. Then it becomes a moot point. The Constitution says they have no right to own the land anyway. The little part about 10 sq miles for a capital and some for forts and magazines, which BLM, Park Service, Forestry, etc. are not. But then I forget, the Constitution is no more now than an historical footnote.

TBG

varminter22 said:

No offense, sir, but NO. This is Nevada; not Chesterfield County, Virginia.

In Nevada, the state CAN enforce laws on federal property and military installations where the state has not officially/formally ceded jurisdiction.

In Churchill County, for example, where I live, the feds have NOT one square inch of ground wherein they have jurisdiction. And that includes the Naval Air Station located here. The sheriff can (and does when appropriate) enter the NAS at any time he deems necessary. Another example is Sand Mountain rec area; our sheriff has entered into an agreement with the BLM giving the BLM limited jurisdiction, however more serious offenses, including DUI, etc, remain the under the jurisdiction of our county sheriff.

You're right, there "should be" no confusion, no conflict. But that obviously is not the case.

If you peruse NRS Ch 328, you'll note the Clark County location(s) wherein the state of Nevada has ceded jurisdiction.

How does this all tie together regarding the topic here? That is the question.

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No offense taken I assure you. I will always cede to local people who have solid facts - they've been there and done that frequently. Nevada's position on all land within its borders is unique, even foreign to me. That makes today a good day......I learned something new.

Outside of wanting information/verification for my own benefit, my purpose was to cause circumstantial claims to be confirmed with cites.

Grapeshot said:

Outside of wanting information/verification for my own benefit, my purpose was to cause circumstantial claims to be confirmed with cites.

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Which it seems I did?

Vegassteve said:

Which it seems I did?

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Well I certainly have a new perspective on how things are done and why in Nevada. The grass may be seen as greener or in some cases browner, but what I have to remember is that it is somebody else's grass - they planted it, trimmed it, mowed it and in some cases fertilized it.

Sure you contributed. A lot of people and their thoughts/deeds contribute. Thing that I noticed is how well you all mesh, you work through your problems with little or no friction. Not all states are so blessed.

Dove season opens Monday so gotta wrap this up for now and go bust some clays. Dove = some of the most expensive meat known to man.

Returning this to your scheduled programing.

Grapeshot said:

Well I certainly have a new perspective on how things are done and why in Nevada. The grass may be seen as greener or in some cases browner, but what I have to remember is that it is somebody else's grass - they planted it, trimmed it, mowed it and in some cases fertilized it.

Sure you contributed. A lot of people and their thoughts/deeds contribute. Thing that I noticed is how well you all mesh, you work through your problems with little or no friction. Not all states are so blessed.

Dove season opens Monday so gotta wrap this up for now and go bust some clays. Dove = some of the most expensive meat known to man.

Returning this to your scheduled programing.

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Thanks for the comments. Appreciate it.

We don't always agree on all things and how to approach the many issues before us. Although we have it pretty good here as compared to many states, there is much work to be done in Nevada.

I sure would like to repeal all unconstitutional and/or unnecessary draconian gun laws in one fell swoop. But, alas, that won't happen, so we keep chipping away.

But we agree on most things. Like Reagan said, those that agree with you 80% are your friends. And his 11th commandment, don't speak ill of your friends. (Paraphrased) Sometimes we forget that!