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Thread: Hypothetical situation/what if

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    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    Hypothetical situation/what if

    Ok ive wondered. Let's say you/I and your/my family is on a walk, minding my/your own business when a nasty dog is snarling and barking at you when all the sudden charges at you/me/family member. In a threatening manner, could be a stray could be a domesticated What would/could you do?

    I have a 2 year old little girl and the other night I had this dream where she was attacked in this manner, it has been on my mind, do I have to wait for something to happen???? Now obviously this would be like a big dog...

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    The road to hell is paved with what-ifs, as I taught my daughter now doctor.

    The closest that I have come to drawing in about twenty years of gun carry was due to dogs running at my daughter and her mother. About the time I had my hand on the grip their demeanor changed from pack to tongue-lolling and greeting.

    I would not hesitate to kill any beast. The law might frown on discharge of a gun in your community and the owner might try action for tort loss of his beast. SCROOM It is a beast at large.

    Making man and beast somehow equivalent is a much shorter road to hell than asking "what-if."

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    WHY would you want to expend a bullet on a quickly moving target with only limited hope that a firing solution would solve your dilemma. ALWAYS carry a stick or an umbrella when going for a walk where there are dogs. A dog will see a stick and unless he's in a pack, will back off. Open an umbrella in the path of a charging dog and he will back off immediately. Bullets cost money - every bullet has a lawyer attached - FORGET that at your peril. You risk missing the dog, wounding the dog (you pay vet bills), shooting yourself in the leg. IN ADDITION, do you have time to put on hearing protection? NO. So trade your hearing to scare off a dog that is probably fake charging you? Stupid, negligent.

    So, in balance, the OP might be an idiot not to have at least intuited this last point, I'm not sure. We've had a lot of 'what if' idiots posting here lately.
    Last edited by sawah; 04-28-2012 at 06:08 PM.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Been covered many times, many ways before.

    Redundant, I repeat redundant.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    what happend to respect for the individual

    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    WHY would you want to expend a bullet on a quickly moving target with only limited hope that a firing solution would solve your dilemma. ALWAYS carry a stick or an umbrella when going for a walk where there are dogs. A dog will see a stick and unless he's in a pack, will back off. Open an umbrella in the path of a charging dog and he will back off immediately. Bullets cost money - every bullet has a lawyer attached - FORGET that at your peril. You risk missing the dog, wounding the dog (you pay vet bills), shooting yourself in the leg. IN ADDITION, do you have time to put on hearing protection? NO. So trade your hearing to scare off a dog that is probably fake charging you? Stupid, negligent.

    So, in balance, the OP might be an idiot not to have at least intuited this last point, I'm not sure. We've had a lot of 'what if' idiots posting here lately.
    i made my question clear "what could/would you do" you say what about hearing protection, so when you carry you have hearing protection on in case you may need to defend yourself from an attacking individual, and as well you say a quickly moving target "hold on mister i have to put in hearing protection before i shoot you, and could you please stand still" , and a large dog could attack my daughter and kill her, i would rather pay vet bills than bury my little girl.


    remember Matthew 7:1-5:

    1. Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2. For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.

    3. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 4. How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5. Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.

    even if you don't believe in god it still holds true in the real life

    thanks
    Last edited by tjkruck; 04-28-2012 at 06:36 PM. Reason: trying to keep civil

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    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Been covered many times, many ways before.

    Redundant, I repeat redundant.
    sorry, i was using tapatalk and was unable to find any thread like this could be maybe have a "hypothetical situation" category? i bet it would get a lot of posts

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjkruck View Post
    3. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 4. How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5. Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.

    even if you don't believe in god it still holds true in the real life

    thanks
    I have no respect for a person who is seeking permission to kill a defenseless animal. I have no respect for a person who is so foolish as to expend a round in a high chaos situation where they might harm another. I have little respect for those who can't take criticism when they should realize that their position is foolish and untenable. You, sir, should not have a firearm if you have to ask questions such as these.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    I have no respect for a person who is seeking permission to kill a defenseless animal. I have no respect for a person who is so foolish as to expend a round in a high chaos situation where they might harm another. I have little respect for those who can't take criticism when they should realize that their position is foolish and untenable. You, sir, should not have a firearm if you have to ask questions such as these.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

    look at the ages of people attacked dude, id say alot of them were defenseless

    remember when someone is attacking/shooting at you THAT IS ALSO A HIGH CHAOS SITUATION THAT MAY HARM ANOTHER
    Last edited by tjkruck; 04-28-2012 at 09:08 PM.

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    We've actually covered this senerio on another Texas CC board. Basicly, Texas law says you can use deadly force in defense against 'the threat of grave bodily harm and or death.' That statute says NOTHING limiting that to only 2 legged threats. And, yes, I have drawn in this kind of situation. Two dogs came charging at me, I started yelling 'Whoever owns these dogs better come keep them alive!!" Fornunatly, he was in the garage of the house, called off his mutts and was very understanding.
    Lower the crime rate by lowering the criminal survival rate!
    When people say 'God Bless America' I'm sure He says, "I gave you Texas!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    WHY would you want to expend a bullet on a quickly moving target with only limited hope that a firing solution would solve your dilemma. ALWAYS carry a stick or an umbrella when going for a walk where there are dogs. A dog will see a stick and unless he's in a pack, will back off. Open an umbrella in the path of a charging dog and he will back off immediately. Bullets cost money - every bullet has a lawyer attached - FORGET that at your peril. You risk missing the dog, wounding the dog (you pay vet bills), shooting yourself in the leg. IN ADDITION, do you have time to put on hearing protection? NO. So trade your hearing to scare off a dog that is probably fake charging you? Stupid, negligent.

    So, in balance, the OP might be an idiot not to have at least intuited this last point, I'm not sure. We've had a lot of 'what if' idiots posting here lately.
    You sound awfully definitive and judgmental in your response for a situation that has so many variables.

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    Regular Member Irish.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    I have no respect for a person who is seeking permission to kill a defenseless animal. I have no respect for a person who is so foolish as to expend a round in a high chaos situation where they might harm another. I have little respect for those who can't take criticism when they should realize that their position is foolish and untenable. You, sir, should not have a firearm if you have to ask questions such as these.

    Before you start judging someone, maybe you should do some research on the subject. Here I did it for you, on my phone. It took 2 minutes and a google search. Sorry if the link doesn't work. Again, I'm on my phone.

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/...7.17&year=2011


    Sent from my iPhone

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish.40 View Post
    Before you start judging someone, maybe you should do some research on the subject. Here I did it for you, on my phone. It took 2 minutes and a google search. Sorry if the link doesn't work. Again, I'm on my phone.

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/...7.17&year=2011
    Nice find - the wording is specifically "on target" to this thread. Facts trump feelings.
    347.17 KILLING DOGS IN CERTAIN CASES.

    Any person may kill any dog that the person knows is affected with the disease known as hydrophobia, or that may suddenly attack while the person is peacefully walking or riding and while being out of the enclosure of its owner or keeper, and may kill any dog found killing, wounding, or worrying any horses, cattle, sheep, lambs, or other domestic animals.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Nice find - the wording is specifically "on target" to this thread. Facts trump feelings.
    Though I don't like being charged by dogs, 99% are 'fake charges'. Only pack attacks are to be feared and in that case, more than one dog coming at you, you will not be able to stop it, they are experienced and elusive and you can't hit them.

    As to shooting a dog, the ramifications if you guess wrong, miss, hit something else, discharge your firearm in the city, are too high to consider using a firearm as a first choice. Indeed I have to wonder about someone who is PREWARNED there is potential for dog 'attack' by a single dog in the city, and comes here seeking permission to kill the animal. Walk elsewhere, carry mace, carry a stick, use your head. It's violating one of the three S rules to walk where you know a dog might charge your child.

    So my point(s) stand. If you know a dog charge is a problem, have non-lethal methods, have tried and true methods with no sequela that will put you in a worse position. Do NOT come to OCDO and ask permission to kill them - that's juvenile. Note I've tried to keep my posts and comments non-personal (a person might be a...), though I was a bit brusque.

    I'm outta this thread. Take my advice or wind up in jail for killing someone's pet and wounding a bystander while you swing your firearm around trying to hit a low fast-moving target.
    Last edited by sawah; 04-29-2012 at 08:33 AM.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member Irish.40's Avatar
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    I don't recall anyone asking permission. You seem like an animal lover. I am too, I would do just about anything to not put an animal down. BUT, my family is more valuable to me than any other creature on this planet. If they are in danger, I will not stop until the threat is neutralized.

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    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    Thank you for finding that

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish.40 View Post
    I don't recall anyone asking permission. You seem like an animal lover. I am too, I would do just about anything to not put an animal down. BUT, my family is more valuable to me than any other creature on this planet. If they are in danger, I will not stop until the threat is neutralized.
    You are correct, there was no such request.

    "What if" scenarios draw out both sides of the question - that is the intention of them. Remember too that there is no "one size fits all."

    Trying to think out all possible reactions is a good thing. We would do well to not take personal umbrage and stick to pertinent responses.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Though I don't like being charged by dogs, 99% are 'fake charges'. Only pack attacks are to be feared and in that case, more than one dog coming at you, you will not be able to stop it, they are experienced and elusive and you can't hit them.
    Cite please.

    (snip) It's violating one of the three S rules to walk where you know a dog might charge your child.
    And how does one exactly know every when and where that they might be attacked?

    So my point(s) stand. If you know a dog charge is a problem, have non-lethal methods, have tried and true methods with no sequela that will put you in a worse position. Do NOT come to OCDO and ask permission to kill them - that's juvenile. Note I've tried to keep my posts and comments non-personal (a person might be a...), though I was a bit brusque.
    So you deciding that the OP shouldn't be armed is non-personal?

    I'm outta this thread. Take my advice or wind up in jail for killing someone's pet and wounding a bystander while you swing your firearm around trying to hit a low fast-moving target.
    Buh-bye. I won't hold my breath waiting for your cite, either.

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    Regular Member Irish.40's Avatar
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    Thank you, PistolpackingMomma! You said what I didn't have the patience to articulate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    I have no respect for a person who is seeking permission to kill a defenseless animal. I have no respect for a person who is so foolish as to expend a round in a high chaos situation where they might harm another. I have little respect for those who can't take criticism when they should realize that their position is foolish and untenable. You, sir, should not have a firearm if you have to ask questions such as these.
    Bingo^.

    As to dogs "charging"...99% internet/media myth. End story. Unless rabid, or abused, most, even alledegly "mean" dogs are NOT going to charge or attack anyone without having been provoked or harmed.One thing you never hear in all these "news" stories of kids/people being charged or attacked by dogs is the side of the story those "victims" or families thereof, are never willing to admit- that prior to that attack they were messing with , or doing something to the dog, in the 1st place.

    Something to consider: Dogs arent people -they act/operate/function mostly on instinct. They dont wake from a nap, go tooling down the street,thinking "hmm maybe some tasty little rugrat will be out and about to tear the throat out of".
    They dont attack anyone out of malice, or for sh*ts and giggles- they do so out of defense for themselves, or for their masters-IF/WHEN they interpret a threat.

    Humans, however..well, we all know Humnan nature. And there's no shortage of folks who DO wake up and say "hmm I wonder who I can find today to rob, rape, or kill" Those, are conscious decisions, acted upon by folks of a wicked bent.

    A massively displaced concern, this dream, chalk it up to such, and carry on.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Irish.40's Avatar
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    Once again, the OP wasn't asking about the probability of such an attack. Just a simple, hypothetical "what would you do?" So, my answer to that original question... Stop the threat regardless of the consequences! My family comes first. I don't understand the confusion on the OP.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Bingo^.

    As to dogs "charging"...99% internet/media myth. End story. Unless rabid, or abused, most, even alledegly "mean" dogs are NOT going to charge or attack anyone without having been provoked or harmed.One thing you never hear in all these "news" stories of kids/people being charged or attacked by dogs is the side of the story those "victims" or families thereof, are never willing to admit- that prior to that attack they were messing with , or doing something to the dog, in the 1st place.

    Something to consider: Dogs arent people -they act/operate/function mostly on instinct. They dont wake from a nap, go tooling down the street,thinking "hmm maybe some tasty little rugrat will be out and about to tear the throat out of".
    They dont attack anyone out of malice, or for sh*ts and giggles- they do so out of defense for themselves, or for their masters-IF/WHEN they interpret a threat.

    Humans, however..well, we all know Humnan nature. And there's no shortage of folks who DO wake up and say "hmm I wonder who I can find today to rob, rape, or kill" Those, are conscious decisions, acted upon by folks of a wicked bent.

    A massively displaced concern, this dream, chalk it up to such, and carry on.
    Displaced concern? Hmm...not if you or yours was one of the intended victims.


    • An estimated 4.7 million dog bites occur in the U.S. each year
    • Nearly 800,000 dog bites require medical care
    • Approximately 24% of human deaths involved unrestrained dogs off of their owners’ property4
    • Approximately 58% of human deaths involved unrestrained dogs on their owners’ property



    http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-stati...tatistics.html

    http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-sta...ities-2011.php

    http://www.americanhumane.org/animal...dog-bites.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    I don't walk around with an umbrella, or a stick so I guess that advice sucks. I have been attacked on two occasions by dogs, they were not fake charging me either. One was up off the ground going for my throat, had no gun, so I jumped up and kneed it in the chest, it broke off and ran. If I had not done that, that German Shepard would have ripped my throat out.

    The second attack was while I was jogging. A great Dane ran across the street barking at me charging like he was going to attack, the guy outside with his kids said and I quote "His bark is worse then his bite, you will be ok", just then he jumped up and snap at me and I was just barely in time moving my arm. If I had not jerked my arm out of the way I am sure he would have bit me down to the bone. I spun to face the dog and as he jumped to attack me again I kicked him as hard as I could in the chest. At the time I was taking karate classes (going for my black belt at the time) and I know the kick was good and as hard as I could make it. I felt the jolt all the way up my spin from the kick, the dog was huge, taller than me on his back legs and he did a complete flip in the air from my kick, landed on his head and got up to attack me again. That was when the owner jumped the dog and grabbed his collar. He then went on a triad about how he was going to sue me for attacking his dog.

    So my answer is: Heck ya, shoot that muther. This thing about not being able to hit a dog, is BS, if you think you are going to be attacked, attack yourself. You have every right to shoot an animal about to attack you. I am too old now to defend myself from an attacking dog with fancy karate moves, my joints just won't allow it. But a hollow point will stop a dog in his tracks. I am a hunter and I can tell you that hitting a moving target at 20 feet is not that hard, but it does take practicing your marksmanship, allot.

  23. #23
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    MN law looks simular to WA in this case. A dog that is not under control of it's owner, and/or on it's owners property it is basically open season if it is agressive to you or yours...also, here in WA, if it (worse yet, they are) is chasing livestock or wild animals (Deer, elk, etc), you are supposed to shoot it.

    My personal way to handle dogs (that are not mine) is to be very authoritative and tell them to "Go Home" in a commanding type voice. It has been my experience, pets will stop what they are doing, and go back the way they came, wild dogs will not. If they keep chasing the deer, or come at me...they're dead...end of dicussion...The coydogs can clean up what is left.

    I've even had one of my own dogs shot for chasing cows. The neighbors cows were pushing the fence between his pasture and my yard. My 5 little girls were in the yard playing and my Dobermann decided that those cows were too close to her girls, so she chased them off. Neighbor shot her, and the Sheriff could do nothing about it. Not very neighborly, but that is the way the law is written.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjkruck View Post
    Ok ive wondered. Let's say you/I and your/my family is on a walk, minding my/your own business when a nasty dog is snarling and barking at you when all the sudden charges at you/me/family member. In a threatening manner, could be a stray could be a domesticated What would/could you do?
    If I felt that I was at risk of serious bodily harm or death I'd shoot it, no if and or buts, I am also confident of my ability to engage a dog with success additionally in my AO it is totally legal to do so.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    I had a Pugle a cross between a Pug and a Beegle, a very easy going dog. One day a woman and her kids walked by my home, I lived way out in the country, my dog ran loose.Without warning or any provoking, he ran out and attacked the woman,she had deep bruises all over her legs, thank goodness it was not one of her children he attacked. This dog had NEVER showed any signs of aggression,until that day, I had him put down, if she had of put him down I would not have said a word, EXCEPT, im sorry for what Buddy did, dont beat yourself up for killing him. One dog no pack and unprovoked.She and her kids had walked by my house many times, and he just boltted and attack i watched it happen. I didnt have the heart to put him down myself. If a dog attacks and they can and sometimes will put it down. My yard is now fenced and my new dogs NEVER go outside the fence.
    So to the OP its a good thing to know what you will, should,or could do.
    I am not a gun nut, nor am I a nut with a gun
    I simply rufuse to be a helpless victim, I may be unable to stop myself from being a victim but at least I wont be helpless

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