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Thread: Dilemma

  1. #1
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Dilemma

    Ok, so the wife and I just sent off our paperwork for our concealed carry permits this past week. Her for the first time, me to reinstate mine since it lapsed while I was in Afghanistan for almost two years. Anyway, I've gotten accustomed to open carrying pretty much all the time now, but I kinda like the idea of having a secondary pocket pistol stuffed in a pocket as a backup to my G27 which I carry in a SERPA paddle when OC.

    My dilemma is, as soon as I stick the secondary pistol in a pocket, I lose my right to refuse identification to any officer who decides he has a right to demand ID and grill me for OC.

    Since OC is not a justifiable reason to detain and demand ID from my understanding of our laws, but CHP holders are required to identify and produce permit when CC, I'm torn as to how I'm required to respond to an officer stopping me for OC.

    Since OC isn't illegal, and he has no right to ask for my ID simply because I'm OC, why should I be obligated or required to even speak to him/her, much less tell them I'm carrying another pistol concealed? After all, had they not seen my OC sidearm, they would have had no reason in their mind to stop me in the first place.

    I guess that's my dilemma... How do I respond to an officer's questioning if I am carrying concealed in addition to openly, if they aren't stopping me for a legitimate reason in the first place. I mean, if I'm carrying concealed only, and an officer approaches me for no reason, I can't imagine just immediately volunteering that I'm carrying in that instance, even though I understand it to be required.
    Last edited by Medic1210; 04-29-2012 at 02:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    ...I can't imagine just immediately volunteering that I'm carrying in that instance, even though I understand it to be required.
    I believe you just answered your own question.
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    My dilemma is, as soon as I stick the secondary pistol in a pocket, I lose my right to refuse identification to any officer who decides he has a right to demand ID and grill me for OC.

    Since OC is not a justifiable reason to detain and demand ID from my understanding of our laws, but CHP holders are required to identify and produce permit when CC, I'm torn as to how I'm required to respond to an officer stopping me for OC.

    I guess that's my dilemma... How do I respond to an officer's questioning if I am carrying concealed in addition to openly, if they aren't stopping me for a legitimate reason in the first place.
    There's no dilemma if you read the law in NC:

    To possess a concealed handgun in North Carolina, you must:
    Carry your permit and a valid form of identification with you at all times.
    Disclose the fact that you have a valid concealed handgun permit
    when you are approached or
    addressed by any law enforcement officer in North Carolina.

    So if approached or addressed (I'd choose addressed) let him know you have a PERMIT. Print out and carry this edict (see www.handgunlaw.us) and run your recorder any time you are out and about. NC is a one party state so you can run your recorder. Stay away from stupid places, people and events and if things become stupid, leave.

    IOW, if you are in a McDonald's and you see some bozo eyeing you, and getting out his cell phone - DO NOT stay there. (refer to the 3S rule) Leave. Often times an OC-er has ample warning that people are not happy with them. They say they carry 90% of the time without incident yet when they get this warning (in the small percentage of times) they don't leave, they stay there and stubbornly put themselves in a stupid-evolving situation. Why not just leave? Just as in a road rage incident. You KNOW it's coming. Take the exit. You're in a car - it's not like you're losing any time to drive around the block and come back on the road when it's 99% safe.

    HTH
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    To add:

    If you're in a restaurant and want to be contentious, take your unfinished food to the manager and say "I'd like to finish eating this and pay for it, but you have a patron eyeing me, and mean mugging and brandishing (a cell phone), so unless you ask him to leave, I'd like to leave my remaining food with you" Then depart and you can tell the manager "You handle my bill, please".

    I wonder if that would get any results. Of course if the manager says, 'no, go sit down, pay up'. ask for a doggie bag and leave but have him provide the tip.

    I think it's time we start putting the ball back in their court and complaining about patrons and people who are trying to deny us our rights by intimidation. Call 911 and say 'some bozo is stalking me and confrontational, send an officer to handle this', for example. Don't try to do it yourself and end up the victim.
    Last edited by sawah; 04-29-2012 at 09:16 AM.
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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    There's no dilemma if you read the law in NC:

    To possess a concealed handgun in North Carolina, you must:
    Carry your permit and a valid form of identification with you at all times.
    Disclose the fact that you have a valid concealed handgun permit
    when you are approached or
    addressed by any law enforcement officer in North Carolina.

    So if approached or addressed (I'd choose addressed) let him know you have a PERMIT. Print out and carry this edict (see www.handgunlaw.us) and run your recorder any time you are out and about. NC is a one party state so you can run your recorder. Stay away from stupid places, people and events and if things become stupid, leave.

    IOW, if you are in a McDonald's and you see some bozo eyeing you, and getting out his cell phone - DO NOT stay there. (refer to the 3S rule) Leave. Often times an OC-er has ample warning that people are not happy with them. They say they carry 90% of the time without incident yet when they get this warning (in the small percentage of times) they don't leave, they stay there and stubbornly put themselves in a stupid-evolving situation. Why not just leave? Just as in a road rage incident. You KNOW it's coming. Take the exit. You're in a car - it's not like you're losing any time to drive around the block and come back on the road when it's 99% safe.

    HTH
    You're slightly off in your bolded part. You must inform the officer only if you have a CHP and are carrying concealed at the time. There's no requirement to disclose if you are not carrying concealed. You don't even have to have the permit on you if you are not carrying concealed.

    That said, this is one of the more commonly misapplied and confusing requirements concerning the CHP. The confusion usually rears it's head at the worst times, and many people (LEOs included) often want to expand this to mean that a CHP holder must disclose the fact he/ she has a permit even if they are not carrying concealed, or even carrying at all at the time.

    In a strictly statutory sense, disclosure is not required unless you are carrying concealed at the time.

    Medic- It doesn't matter why an officer approaches you, stops you, or whatever the case may be. If he's talking to you, you must disclose that you are carrying concealed and that you have a permit. The reason for the contact may be as innocent as him wishing you a happy day and then casually asking you about your tennis shoes because he wants to get his son a pair for his birthday. If it's anything more than a simple hello in passing (basically), you'll have to disclose. This doesn't mean he was fishing for something or was "detaining" you in any way beforehand. It just means the initial contact went from a passing greeting to "addressing", in which case you must disclose.

    On a side note, have you called the Sheriff's department and asked about an extension? If a permit expires while on active duty overseas, the original permit along with your orders suffice for an extension until your new permit comes in after returning home. You might want to call them as you are probably still legal to carry concealed, unless I've misunderstood your situation.
    Last edited by rotorhead; 04-29-2012 at 10:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    There's no dilemma if you read the law in NC:

    To possess a concealed handgun in North Carolina, you must:
    Carry your permit and a valid form of identification with you at all times.
    Disclose the fact that you have a valid concealed handgun permit
    when you are approached or
    addressed by any law enforcement officer in North Carolina.

    So if approached or addressed (I'd choose addressed) let him know you have a PERMIT. Print out and carry this edict (see www.handgunlaw.us) and run your recorder any time you are out and about. NC is a one party state so you can run your recorder. Stay away from stupid places, people and events and if things become stupid, leave.

    IOW, if you are in a McDonald's and you see some bozo eyeing you, and getting out his cell phone - DO NOT stay there. (refer to the 3S rule) Leave. Often times an OC-er has ample warning that people are not happy with them. They say they carry 90% of the time without incident yet when they get this warning (in the small percentage of times) they don't leave, they stay there and stubbornly put themselves in a stupid-evolving situation. Why not just leave? Just as in a road rage incident. You KNOW it's coming. Take the exit. You're in a car - it's not like you're losing any time to drive around the block and come back on the road when it's 99% safe.

    HTH
    I respectfully disagree. Why should I, a law abiding citizen doing nothing illegal, leave just because someone may feel uncomfortable around someone who is OC? If I am in a place where I have a right to be, engaged in a legal activity, why should I have to stop and leave? How many other rights do you advocate giving up just because someone doesn't like it?!?

    The road rage thing is completely different than sittig in a restuarant or being in a store. I would not be in danger in a store, from someone giving me the stink eye. You can bet I will be getting as far away from a road rager as possible and calling the police while I am at it. That person is a danger to everyone, not just me. Two completely different scenarios.
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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess my dilemma now is whether I really want to carry a concealed backup while OC.

    To rotorhead, I didn't realize they had that extension thing until it was too late. I've been home since August, so the90 day window has long since passed. I didn't mind taking the class though, since my wife would have probably not done it by herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Why should I, a law abiding citizen doing nothing illegal, leave just because someone may feel uncomfortable around someone who is OC? If I am in a place where I have a right to be, engaged in a legal activity, why should I have to stop and leave? How many other rights do you advocate giving up just because someone doesn't like it?!?.

    I think you miss the point of this suggestion. The point is NOT that you should "give up". The point is that you would be letting the owner of such an establishment know that as a gun -owner, you expect to have your Constitutionally-protected rights respected by their patrons, and if they will not support your rights, you will not patronize their establishment, AND you will expect that they will, as a goodwill gesture, comp you the meal as restitution for the violation of your rights.

    This is called "voting with your wallet", and is the ONLY way to get the message across to some business owners. Some business owners only understand "bottom line"--hey do not respond to logic, the law, or arguments of fundamental human rights--but if they see that they will lose out on a few dollars profit, their ears perk up...
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    You're slightly off in your bolded part. You must inform the officer only if you have a CHP and are carrying concealed at the time. There's no requirement to disclose if you are not carrying concealed. You don't even have to have the permit on you if you are not carrying concealed.

    Medic- It doesn't matter why an officer approaches you, stops you, or whatever the case may be. If he's talking to you, you must disclose that you are carrying concealed and that you have a permit.
    You are correct, statutory law requires disclosure of your permit only if you're also carrying concealed at the time. Sorry not to add that - I just copied it off the handgunlaw.us site.

    As to when you are being 'approached' by an officer, or you see one in visual range or if one tips his hat at you as you cross the street (and you are currently carrying a firearm), I'd say it's a very gray area. Usually laws like this, if they are complete define the terms. 'Approached' means stopped for a lawful reason to include questions about a crime that you might know' - is one way to clarify. I don't know if NC HG-law has these. If not they should. As you pass the cop who says 'howdy', should you yell out a "I HAVE A CONCEALED FIREARM"...? I'd say no.

    I'd further refine this to suggest that if you are approached you must pull out your 'valid ID' show the LEO and at that time I'd suggest you also present him with your permit. No talking. That way you can't get in trouble for 'intimidation'. I'd also include a card with the NC laws on it so he can read for himself that OC and CC mean thus and so and require this and that. It's the lowest key method I can think of at this point while still complying. (also carry your recorder)

    As far as I can tell, you have no duty to show him your gun, tell him where the gun is, how many guns you're concealing or if you have any sales slips or proof-of-purchase. So I'd contact an experienced lawyer if you think that might come up, otherwise remain mum on those things (or ask (recording it) if you're 'required to answer that question by law' or something.

    Usually it will never come up if you're not stopped in a car, or if you're just walking down the street concealing properly.

    Thanks for the clarification.
    Last edited by sawah; 04-29-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Why should I, a law abiding citizen doing nothing illegal, leave just because someone may feel uncomfortable around someone who is OC? If I am in a place where I have a right to be, engaged in a legal activity, why should I have to stop and leave? How many other rights do you advocate giving up just because someone doesn't like it?!?
    You are quite correct there is not a good reason why you, doing nothing illegal should leave if you feel your 'OC spidey sense' tingling. You can certainly elect to stay in this (now) 'Stupid Place' and deal with 'Stupid People'. It's your right.

    But say you CO to 100 places and one place gives you that vibe. Why stay and risk anything. Go to the next convenient place/restaurant/store like that one and resume your activities and go another 100 places stress free. Sometimes it makes more sense to evade and avoid that one in a hundred 'iffy' situation, rather than becoming a victim of someone's harassment (and harassment under color of law), if you can 'vote with your feet' and follow that 3S rule.

    Would you go into a place that said 'Anti-handgun/hoplophobe Convention in progress here, sign up at the front desk' open carrying or go to the hotel down the street? So the difference is that a perfectly innocent place suddenly showed signs of stupidity. Be flexible. Be able to intuit that it's time to go and if you like inform the manager why.

    It's just my opinion. I thing sometimes our thinking can be inflexible and I just wanted to share a bit of an 'eye-opener'. By staying we fail, perhaps, to listen to our Situational Awareness.
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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    You are correct, statutory law requires disclosure of your permit only if you're also carrying concealed at the time. Sorry not to add that - I just copied it off the handgunlaw.us site.

    As to when you are being 'approached' by an officer, or you see one in visual range or if one tips his hat at you as you cross the street (and you are currently carrying a firearm), I'd say it's a very gray area. Usually laws like this, if they are complete define the terms. 'Approached' means stopped for a lawful reason to include questions about a crime that you might know' - is one way to clarify. I don't know if NC HG-law has these. If not they should. As you pass the cop who says 'howdy', should you yell out a "I HAVE A CONCEALED FIREARM"...? I'd say no.

    I'd further refine this to suggest that if you are approached you must pull out your 'valid ID' show the LEO and at that time I'd suggest you also present him with your permit. No talking. That way you can't get in trouble for 'intimidation'. I'd also include a card with the NC laws on it so he can read for himself that OC and CC mean thus and so and require this and that. It's the lowest key method I can think of at this point while still complying. (also carry your recorder)

    As far as I can tell, you have no duty to show him your gun, tell him where the gun is, how many guns you're concealing or if you have any sales slips or proof-of-purchase. So I'd contact an experienced lawyer if you think that might come up, otherwise remain mum on those things (or ask (recording it) if you're 'required to answer that question by law' or something.

    Usually it will never come up if you're not stopped in a car, or if you're just walking down the street concealing properly.

    Thanks for the clarification.
    There is a bit of fuzziness there, as you say. I guess the idea is to notify is anything more than a greeting between you and the officer happens. In other words, if both are walking from different directions and you happen to pass- you simply say hi and be on your way. But, if the officer stops you and starts a conversation (or the other way around) it would be then that you would have to disclose.

    The law states that you have to disclose when approached or addressed, but you're not required to display the permit or the weapon unless specifically asked by the officer. The guidance from the Attorney General's office is to basically announce your permit and the fact that you are carrying concealed, and then be ready to show the permit or gun if asked to do so.

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    Can someone please cite the actual law in question. I know in my home state we have a "duty to notify" police, but when you look at the actual law it specifically states only during an arrest, detention, or routine traffic stop (which when one thinks about it is a detention). So rather than just hearing people say what the law means I would like to see the actual text of the law and go from there before giving an opinion.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Rotorhead, you are probably correct the statute does not say you have to display your permit, but I was just musing as to the most low-key way to comply and that would be giving your permit and your (hopefully non-Driver's License) photo ID to the LEO and say nothing. In fact if a LEO was eating breakfast at a local CC frequented restaurant, imaging how polite and compliant it would be if ALL the CC-ers in the store, say 20 of them... went up to him and gave him their CHL/CC permits and IDs and helped him along, allowing him a nice hour-long break from eating to let his food digest.

    Alas, one can only dream. (kidding).
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    § 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit. (a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer.
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    On a side note, if I'm in McDonalds eating and someone other than the manager doesn’t like me OCing then that is something that they will have to learn to deal with. I wouldn't expect the management to ask them to leave just as I expect them not to ask me to leave. If the manager ask me to leave then I will and then the calls/emails start. I can assure you that even though I notice most reactions around me and my gun, I carry on as if they aren't even there. A person can't go anywhere without encountering "stupidity".

    So if you would rather leave and let stupidity control different aspects of your life that is your choice, but I'm going to enjoy my fish filet sandwich, fries, and chocolate milkshake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    There is a bit of fuzziness there, as you say. I guess the idea is to notify is anything more than a greeting between you and the officer happens. In other words, if both are walking from different directions and you happen to pass- you simply say hi and be on your way. But, if the officer stops you and starts a conversation (or the other way around) it would be then that you would have to disclose.

    The law states that you have to disclose when approached or addressed, but you're not required to display the permit or the weapon unless specifically asked by the officer. The guidance from the Attorney General's office is to basically announce your permit and the fact that you are carrying concealed, and then be ready to show the permit or gun if asked to do so.
    While at the Dogwood Festival yesterday I was talking with one of the officers. He kept touching me on the shoulder and I kept thinking, a little lower and he's going to hit the butt of the 45. Also it was nice to read the rules of conduct and not see any mention of firearms. Thanks to HB650.

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketdad View Post
    While at the Dogwood Festival yesterday I was talking with one of the officers. He kept touching me on the shoulder and I kept thinking, a little lower and he's going to hit the butt of the 45. Also it was nice to read the rules of conduct and not see any mention of firearms. Thanks to HB650.
    Sweet. I never made it down there this weekend. I got stuck building a swing set instead for my grand daughter. Uggh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Rotorhead, you are probably correct the statute does not say you have to display your permit, but I was just musing as to the most low-key way to comply and that would be giving your permit and your (hopefully non-Driver's License) photo ID to the LEO and say nothing. In fact if a LEO was eating breakfast at a local CC frequented restaurant, imaging how polite and compliant it would be if ALL the CC-ers in the store, say 20 of them... went up to him and gave him their CHL/CC permits and IDs and helped him along, allowing him a nice hour-long break from eating to let his food digest.

    Alas, one can only dream. (kidding).
    Heh- the hard part is trying to figure out how the individual LEO will interpret a seemingly easy to digest mandate. Good luck with that part

    Personally, I stay away from the CHP for many reasons so for me it's not an issue.

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    Seeing that law what I would most likely do is do some research in regards to court cases that have ruled similar laws as unconstitutional due to violations or potential violations of one's 5A right to not self-incriminate. From there if I still felt it was unconstitutional I would look into talking to a lawyer and then simply ignore the law as SCOTUS has ruled that one can ignore unconstitutional laws with impunity as if the law was never signed (sorry, I don't have the cite atm and don't have time to find it till tomorrow if someone wants it). Naturally this would mean that I would also have to be willing to potentially go to court to defend myself for why the law was unconstitutional, but that also means they have to find out I'm carrying.

    Though this might not be as easy an arguement in court for you (not that it would be "easy" for anyone) since you can lawfully OC w/o a permit while in my state OC is illegal and one requires a permit to CC (which then goes down the whole road where the SCOTUS has ruled that you can't require a permit/license to exercise a right). But that is why I had said for you to do more research and determine how you felt about the constitutionality of the law and if you're willing to potentially go to court for what you believe.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess my dilemma now is whether I really want to carry a concealed backup while OC.

    To rotorhead, I didn't realize they had that extension thing until it was too late. I've been home since August, so the90 day window has long since passed. I didn't mind taking the class though, since my wife would have probably not done it by herself.
    Of course... Could you not OC the BUG also? No CC, no requirement for permit or showing ID....

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Of course... Could you not OC the BUG also? No CC, no requirement for permit or showing ID....

    Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2
    Yeah, I guess I legally could, but I'm not real big on unnecessary attention. To me, carrying more than one handgun openly, would almost be asking for unwanted negative attention. I know many folks here disagree, but I just would feel odd doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess my dilemma now is whether I really want to carry a concealed backup while OC.

    To rotorhead, I didn't realize they had that extension thing until it was too late. I've been home since August, so the90 day window has long since passed. I didn't mind taking the class though, since my wife would have probably not done it by herself.
    I always carry a concealed backup (Kel-Tec .32) but I honestly think you are making much ado about nothing. I have carried concealed for over 10 years and have never been "approached" by a LEO and forced to "identify", even while OC.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bradburn View Post
    I always carry a concealed backup (Kel-Tec .32) but I honestly think you are making much ado about nothing. I have carried concealed for over 10 years and have never been "approached" by a LEO and forced to "identify", even while OC.
    Yeah, I've never been approached in the 10+ years of concealed carry either. My concern is now that I open carry, I'm more likely to be stopped at some point for my open carried sidearm because of some scared citizen. I guess if i'll just do what's required if ever c/c while OC, and just tell him and offer up ID which I would otherwise not offer up if I weren't CC. No since in me getting in trouble on the off chance my encounter with an uneducated LEO turns into full detention with pat down and free ride to the magistrate. I imagine at that point it would be too late to inform of my CHP and concealed sidearm.

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