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Thread: MO--No duty to inform but, do you any way?

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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    MO--No duty to inform but, do you any way?

    I have been debating this for days on my Facebook with several people I know that are Sheriff Deputy's & Police officers.

    Say you are pulled over. Even though Missouri has NO duty to inform law Do you inform the officer that you have a CCW permit and that your are legally carrying a weapon & possible the location of the weapon I. E. on you hip?

    I have been going over and over this in my head & debating as i said on Facebook as to the the right way to handle this.

    For days now I have been told by others( ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS Primarily) that even with NO duty to inform its better to inform the officer. But this is people I know. What does the general public do.

    The several problems I have with this!

    1. Anything you say can and May be used against you! I understand its a grey area enforcing our rights while not trying to piss off the police officers or make them feel unsafe?

    If you choose to inform with the best intentions in mind and you happen to get one of those officers that is totally against citizens with carrying firearms . I have just volunteered information that i was NOT legally bound to and could lead to further escalation during a traffic stop?

    2. I have heard of a Case in Oregon where a man was pulled over immediately notified officer he had a handgun. Man was pulled from his car, handcuffed, and arrested. Police officer took the notification as a threat toward his life.

    3. A good majority of the police video's i watch on you tube where the person did not immediately notify that he was armed usually goes very badly or for at least a short time until its sorted out.

    4. So in an effort to keep the police from over reacting do u notify or remain silent about firearm concealed or open?
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    We have only the rights that we defend. You suggest surrendering your Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights to a questionable end.

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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    I am not suggesting nor am I advocating surrendering any rights. In my statements on my Facebook conversation that i referring to which is my current stance that I should never volunteer any information.

    I ask this because I see others that if approached by giving an officer would hand their drivers license, Insurance Card, as well as CCW permit and notify officer immediately when officer approaches vehicle.

    I gain from there statements:

    They do this under the premise that by notifying the officer when not legally bound to in hopes that the officer will know they have a firearm but, not view them as a threat or criminal.

    It seems to me that these people stand the possibility to loose more than they gain.

    I view this as the most they have to gain would be some kind of understanding by the police officer, but on the flip side when someone notifies when not legally bound they could be opening themselves up to not only more questions but, anything that they say could be used against them

    If you get where i am coming from! Now the whole conversation started over the video of the man in WY who was open carrying on his bike and was pulled over.

    The cop gave the impression that had he notified first he could have alleviated the whole situation. My argument was to the contrary that even had he notified I believe it still could have very much gone the exact same way if not much worse because any statements that you give can be used against you.

    I am merely trying to relate this situation to the everyday citizen whom could find there self in a similar situation and pointing out the fact that even volunteering could end up the same way.
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    IMO, 'duty to inform' states have stupid rules.

    1. the LEO can lie. He can say you didn't inform when you did if he's of a mind to harass you.
    2. the LEO can tell you to shut up and if you try to tell him, and can't claim you didn't inform.

    No duty to inform states are better, but if they have your CC license in the MV database, the LEO knows you have a firearm before he comes up to the car. In that case you might be better served to hand him your CC license along with DL and OP and Insurance and just keep quiet. (there's no threat there, is there?)

    But here's an even better solution. Use the fact that you're carrying, responsible, a grown up to drive in a stellar manner so you never have to be pulled over. Always inspect your car before you venture out to be sure all the lights work. Use your turn signal. Be polite. Drive the speed limit. Avoid road ragers.

    I've been driving since I was 17 (almost 45 years) and only had one ticket for a moving violation (doing 33 in a 25) so if you drive responsibly and lawfully you will never have to confront this question.

    HTH
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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Until recently I was split on this one...(Ref my Oklahoma 'stop') Which I failed !

    LEO are trained to be nice so that they can dig up something...Your best bet..(IMHO) give only the information required by law without much conversation, or any for that matter. They can't get u for nothing if you don't give them anything....cuz believe me...they will find it if they want to.

    The motorcycle video is great, but I will have to assume you are in a car....Roll down your window three inches...and go from there.Hand them your license, registration and insurance and DO NOT SAY A WORD!....There is a video on this...it was great...the cop didn't know what to do...

    If you are on foot....Very simple....."Why am I being detained?"..(NOT Am I being detianed!?!)...Only two answers are avalible..."You are not being detained"...walk away. Or he has to come up with some RAS...which at that time...take the 5th, and immediatley ask for a lawyer as the Marine did in the video.

    You have no duty to talk to the police anymore than you would have a duty to talk to me if we met on the street, if you are just doing your everyday business..

    I am very good friends with St. Charles City and St Charles County's finest, but they know, especailly since the OK fiasco, that I do not trust the LEO... I realize that they have a job to do, but I'll be damned if I help them against me!!!.Thank Oklahoma for that one.
    Last edited by zekester; 04-29-2012 at 09:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post

    No duty to inform states are better, but if they have your CC license in the MV database, the LEO knows you have a firearm before he comes up to the car. In that case you might be better served to hand him your CC license along with DL and OP and Insurance and just keep quiet. (there's no threat there, is there?)

    In that case LEO knows that there MIGHT be a firearm...not that you DO have one. All LEO are training to be wary on any car stop..but informing now he/she KNOWS there is one..anyone think that "alleviates" their feelings any?
    States don’t have rights. People do.

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    In that case LEO knows that there MIGHT be a firearm...not that you DO have one. All LEO are training to be wary on any car stop..but informing now he/she KNOWS there is one..anyone think that "alleviates" their feelings any?
    Not the case in MO....at least as far as I know.....the LEO have know idea if you carry or not, based on your DL, unless you have it on your DL (which is an option), but by running a plate, no record.
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    I do not bother with informing, it is an open debate that has no answers really.

    It is a courtesy to inform, some appreciate it, others become offended, it is a split that is fairly even.

    I drive a lot more than most folks, I typically am speeding, but not to a stupid level, just whatever traffic seems to be rolling at, I mean come on, in the lou, speed limit signs are just suggestions!

    I did get the second ticket in 10 years, I got one 3 years ago for going 69 on highway 55, no inform, no questions, handed a ticket, on my merry way. About November I think it was, got one on olive street road in front of Rombach farms, clipping along at 65 in a 40, my bad 100%, it was about 11, no traffic what so ever and we were all just chatter buggin and I did not pay attention. I plled over before he even got rolling, I did not inform, he came back to car with ticket and then proceeded to prove himself an absolute imbecile by misquoting duty to inform, demonstrated what is really wrong with police departments by dividing it into "we" "us" phrases clearly identifying that COPS are separate from citizens, and if I had had the time, I likely would have verbally blasted his butt for his total lack of understanding of the law, but there was no time so I laughed instead which tweaked his chain a bit anyway.

    There really is no correct answer to this question, however, any officer hellbent upon informing is suspect as they SHOULD be assuming all citizens are armed and should feel a great deal of relief upon learning a CCW is in the car since CCW holders commit far less crimes than even police officers they share the locker room with, but they don't, they are the us vs them crowd and should be weeded out.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Does the no duty to inform law also apply to non ccw holders with a firearm in the vehicle?

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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    Yes it does!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicworkman View Post
    I have been debating this for days on my Facebook with several people I know that are Sheriff Deputy's & Police officers.

    Say you are pulled over. Even though Missouri has NO duty to inform law Do you inform the officer that you have a CCW permit and that your are legally carrying a weapon & possible the location of the weapon I. E. on you hip?

    I have been going over and over this in my head & debating as i said on Facebook as to the the right way to handle this.

    For days now I have been told by others( ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS Primarily) that even with NO duty to inform its better to inform the officer. But this is people I know. What does the general public do.

    The several problems I have with this!

    1. Anything you say can and May be used against you! I understand its a grey area enforcing our rights while not trying to piss off the police officers or make them feel unsafe?

    If you choose to inform with the best intentions in mind and you happen to get one of those officers that is totally against citizens with carrying firearms . I have just volunteered information that i was NOT legally bound to and could lead to further escalation during a traffic stop?

    2. I have heard of a Case in Oregon where a man was pulled over immediately notified officer he had a handgun. Man was pulled from his car, handcuffed, and arrested. Police officer took the notification as a threat toward his life.

    3. A good majority of the police video's i watch on you tube where the person did not immediately notify that he was armed usually goes very badly or for at least a short time until its sorted out.

    4. So in an effort to keep the police from over reacting do u notify or remain silent about firearm concealed or open?
    First of all:
    Duty to carry and display endorsement, penalty for violation--director of revenue immunity from liability, when. 571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry endorsement pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall carry the concealed carry endorsement at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry endorsement upon the request of any peace officer. Failure to comply with this subsection shall not be a criminal offense but the concealed carry endorsement holder may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed thirty-five dollars.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000121.HTM
    Do not inform. Any cop that says it is 'better' to inform than not to inform is no friend of liberty. If you see any LEO friends, when they are off duty, ask them to inform you that they are armed, every time you encounter them. You have just as much authority to ask that question of him as he does to ask you whether or not you are armed while he is on duty..

    Your CCW is listed in MULES. If you are required to provide a state ID (DL) they will learn that you have a MO CCW. If you have a OOS CCW, though luck Charlie.

    They don't ask, you don't tell. You have no gun on you, you no give CCW, that simple. Comply with the law. If the cop wants be be a ignorant state sanctioned thug, keep your recording device running.

    Always know the law and make your choice(s) from there.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If you see any LEO friends, when they are off duty, ask them to inform you that they are armed, every time you encounter them. You have just as much authority to ask that question of him as he does to ask you whether or not you are armed while he is on duty..


    They don't ask, you don't tell. You have no gun on you, you no give CCW, that simple. Comply with the law. If the cop wants be be a ignorant state sanctioned thug, keep your recording device running.

    Always know the law and make your choice(s) from there.

    Well Stated! I will do this next time they come over! LOL
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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    OC for ME,

    This brings up another question then as well. IF specifically asked if i have a weapon am I REQUIRED to answer? I know i cannot lie but do i have to answer? or does the durty to inform cover this?
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    "The shores of history are littered with the wrecks of civilizations, where once free men trusted their rights and liberty to a wholly centralized government"

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    I see no reason to inform if I am receiving a simple citation for speeding, etc. It might complicate the matter, depending on the officer. When I lived in NC, I had no problems when I had to legally notify an officer, however, I heard stories of others being disarmed and harassed.

    However, if you are ever asked to step out of the vehicle, and the firearm is on your person, it might be best to notify the LEO that you are legally carrying and offer to show your permit. If the gun were still in the car and not on my person, I wouldn't say anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicworkman View Post
    OC for ME,

    This brings up another question then as well. IF specifically asked if i have a weapon am I REQUIRED to answer? I know i cannot lie but do i have to answer? or does the durty to inform cover this?
    The best advice I've heard is to respond with "Am I free to go or am I being detained?"
    Last edited by dogsandhogs; 04-30-2012 at 10:10 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicworkman View Post
    OC for ME,

    This brings up another question then as well. IF specifically asked if I have a weapon am I REQUIRED to answer? I know I cannot lie but do I have to answer? Or does the duty to inform cover this?
    There is no duty to inform a LEO that you are armed in MO.

    He can ask anything he wants. Only you can decide whether or not to answer at that moment.

    The reason for the stop drives the questions for investigative purposes. You being lawfully armed has zero bearing on you speeding, for example, which is typically the reason for a stop. If he can not discover that you are armed on his own, given the available facts, then too bad.

    I'm told repeatedly that LEOs assume every person is armed, so why would he ask if it is true that LEOs assume every citizen is armed?

    A MSHP trooper saw my pistol on the center console during a 'routine' check point (his words) south of Bourbon MO a couple of summers ago, he looked right at it, gave me back my DL and said 'Have a nice day Sir.' never even batted an eye, not a word.

    I didn't hold my hands a certain way to show that I was not reaching for a gun. My left elbow was out the window, right hand draped over the steering wheel, I reached above the visor for my DL....normal folks stuff. I don't change my 'routine' just cuz a cop pulls me over.

    Be confident in your knowledge of the law, be confident in yourself, and have faith (some may say unwarranted faith) in the fact that a thug cop is indeed a rare and endangered species.

    Now, ignernt cops or the educationally challenged cops are a different critter. But, they can be rehabbed into being productive members of LE and deserve the opportunity to get it right the next time.

    Carrying a pistol is not a cross that we must bear, it is a tool, a tool that weighs just a wee bit more than most tools we can carry on us.

    Good luck and keep on, keeping on.
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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    My policy is to judge each situation on it's own merit. I don't believe it's prudent to arbitrarily inform in every situation. Likewise, there are times when informing the officer could be the prudent thing to do.

    In any stop where, in my judgment, I don't believe I will be asked to step out of the vehicle, I don't really see much sense in injecting a firearm into the issue and (perhaps) providing the officer with an opening to feed his ego (if he has one) and "assert his authority" over me, the "lowly" citizen. On the other hand, if I believe the stop is going to involve removal from the vehicle and possibly a pat down, I will likely inform in advance of that action to (hopefully) avoid having some cop point his Glock at me on the side of the road when he "discovers" the gun that, in his view, I was "hiding".

    While the vast majority of Police Officer's I know, have met, and have dealt with over the years are good, honest, and professional people, not all of them are. Like any other group of people, there are some losers in the group that, despite the correct legal process for handling a situation, will make it up as they go and follow their own, made-up process for handling a stop. Fighting with one of these clowns on the side of the road, no matter how wrong he/she is, is the wrong thing to do. A little common sense goes a long way when faced with a traffic stop while you are armed.

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    I never inform and I never will if asked. I always respond to questions with a question. Be cool and polite and say nothing unless you want to ask a question.
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    While I agree with not informing, I do ponder what I would do when my pistol is on my hip. Normally it's in my car holster that's easily visible/accessible while driving, or in my pocket. When it is still in my holster on my hip, I don't want to reach back for my wallet and then the cop see the pistol, and assume I'm reaching for it. Or even if the first cop knows it's there, if a second guy walks up on the other side and sees me reaching back there, I don't want to get shot on the spot. Like I said, this is really the only situation I can think of where it's even a question for me. Any thought on this?

    As for who asked if you must inform if asked, no, you don't. Like you said, you can't lie to them, but you don't have to answer.
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    They can ask, remember, if it is a 'consensual contact' (their term, use it against them), it is not a official investigation of a crime or potential criminal activity, say what you want. There is no law in Missouri that requires you to inform anyone that you are armed, even to cops. If it is a official investigation you must be truthful.

    The burden is on them to determine whether or not you are armed given the observable facts. If he really wants to know he needs to conduct a 'Terry Search' and 'pat you down' for his safety. Force him to do that, keep your recorder running.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

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    Do I have a problem with informing anyway? Yes.
    Should departments train their LEOs to better deal with lawful carry? Yes.
    Do I tell students to do it regardless? Yes. See my why explanation below. I also explain that they do not have to unless asked.
    Do I notify regardless? Yes.
    Does every encounter merit disclosure? No, but put yourself in the shoes of that LEO.
    Recording device? Should be standard equipment.

    What would YOUR reaction be if you found out later that the citizen was armed and wasn't courteous enough to tell you. After all, they inform us by wearing openly don't they. (yes, that's an argument FOR open carry) I promise you that if you didn't know the person and had no reason to run that person for warrants that your brain will run wild. It's tough to maintain a calm mindset of: it was probably just lawful carry. Think about it from the LEO perspective. If they treat every encounter as lawful carry the criminals will be able to mount more attacks upon LEOs and the citizenry. If they don't treat them as lawful carry they can become hyper-vigilant and that creates a problem on the other end of the spectrum. There truly is no middle ground. Middle ground means the LEO would need to profile behaviors, clothing, and the relative crime stats within their service area.

    Why do I notify? Because it sets me in the pattern (muscle memory) of notifying upon contact with a LEO so that if I happen to be in a State that has a mandatory notification law I will not have to worry about knowing, I'll already be in that mode.


    Now if any of us are the kinds of idiots that inform to the the presence of a firearm...or use the term GUN when disclosing,rather than simply the presence of a CCW endorsement (might vary in other States, so habits can become a problem) then you likely deserve to be treated like an idiot for the manner you chose to inform. Simply tell the LEO that you have a concealed carry permit IF you're carrying or transporting.

    That said, I do believe that mandatory notification laws need to disappear as they set up the lawful carrier for potential criminal charges. After all, most people will get nervous while carrying when a LEO contact occurs. It takes a few turns on the merry-go-round to overcome that nervousness. Do not mistake a disrespectful attitude and langauge choice (cockiness) with nervousness, the two are not the same.

    Besides, if you happen upon the diligent LEO, they'll already know through this process:
    Cause for the stop.
    Run the plate.
    Run the registered driver for wants, identify a potential of CCW. (easier for Mo licensed drivers than in some other States)

    The number on your DL and your CCW endorsement, even if on separate cards, are the same number. The two are linked within the DOR. So if you get that diligent LEO they'll already know before they ever approach the vehicle, which should prompt the immediate: "Driver's license please. (if it's the RO, then it's simple) I noticed you have a CCW endorsement. Is a firearm present in the vehicle?" If that LEO is professional he or she should simply ask you to state where.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 05-02-2012 at 09:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hazardous0388 View Post
    Does the no duty to inform law also apply to non ccw holders with a firearm in the vehicle?
    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicworkman View Post
    Yes it does!
    The disclosure only applies to CCW holders and they technically only have to provide the endorsement per the statute that's cited in a previous post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    (easier for Mo licensed drivers than in some other States)

    The number on your DL and your CCW endorsement, even if on separate cards, are the same number. The two are linked within the DOR. So if you get that diligent LEO they'll already know before they ever approach the vehicle, which should prompt the immediate: "Driver's license please. (if it's the RO, then it's simple) I noticed you have a CCW endorsement. Is a firearm present in the vehicle?" If that LEO is professional he or she should simply ask you to state where.


    If it's linked to the DL...how would LEO know before they approach the vehicle and have your DL in their hand?
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 05-02-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    What would YOUR reaction be if you found out later that the citizen was armed and wasn't courteous enough to tell you.

    Depending on the circumstances, courtesy goes out the window when it is a 'consensual contact' that I did not consent to before the officer made contact. Hence the constant refrain "Why am/Am I being detained?" Not very courteous or respectful of a citizen towards a LEO if comments by LEOs on LEO-centric forums are to be believed.
    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    After all, they inform us by wearing openly don't they.

    Really?....Really? Well heck, then every uniformed LEO should be strong, vocal advocates for OC. Sadly, the opposite is typically the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    I promise you that if you didn't know the person and had no reason to run that person for warrants that your brain will run wild.

    Then LEOs must be scared witless given that approximately 1 in 30 citizens in Missouri is likely CCW. Especially so, considering a CCW endorsement is not required to be lawfully armed in your vehicle.
    This potentially equates to every other vehicle stopped by LE has a lawfully armed citizen as either the driver and/or passenger, or both.
    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties. 571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly: (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or
    3. ....Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM

    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    It's tough to maintain a calm mindset of: it was probably just lawful carry.

    Once again not my problem. Unless facts prove otherwise, every citizen contacted by a LEO who is armed, is armed lawfully.
    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Think about it from the LEO perspective. If they treat every encounter as lawful carry the criminals will be able to mount more attacks upon LEOs and the citizenry. If they don't treat them as lawful carry they can become hyper-vigilant and that creates a problem on the other end of the spectrum.

    It is my opinion that this is not a dilemma that the vast majority of LEOs are concerned with. They observe, they assess, and then they act based on the totality of the facts before them.
    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    There truly is no middle ground. Middle ground means the LEO would need to profile behaviors, clothing, and the relative crime stats within their service area.

    I imagine that the vast majority of LEOs do this already and rightly so. Or else a Terry Search would be conducted of every citizen contacted by a LEO, especially if the contact is the result of a traffic stop. The citizen has broken the law. But, I rarely hear of LEOs doing Terry Searches on the side of the road for a speeding infraction.
    The vast majority of LEOs are courteous and very professional. They are reasonably well educated, intelligent, personable, easy going citizens, just like me, doing a very demanding and difficult job. But, until they prove to me that they deserve something more than the cooperation mandated by statute, that is all they will garner from me, statute mandated cooperation.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  25. #25
    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    REALteach4u,

    You state in the first paragraph that:

    “Do I tell students to do it regardless? Yes. See my why explanation below. I also explain that they do not have to unless asked.

    I gather from this statement that you are a CCW instructor. Now I took my course from an instructor a little over 5 yrs ago that stated it very much the same way. Where in is where I find that the problem begins, is your personal opinion that notifying is the way to go wherein the LAW says that we do not have a duty to inform.

    I have an open mind and understand that you and other instructors like you make these statements to students in an attempt to cover your bases keeping the best intentions of the students in mind but, given that advice you’re going against what any lawyer would advise.

    By identifying your subjecting yourself to further questions as well as the possibility that something you can and will be used against you. Not only that but, you are giving up your constitutional rights. Rights that are not easily come by, Rights that men/women have fought and died to protect.

    On a hope that because you were forthright maybe the officer will give you some leniency or build some trust. Honestly, If I am pulled over for a traffic violation I would rather just be issued my ticket and be on my way & not even be there long enough to build some trust between us.

    Also from your statement I am led to believe that if asked if we have a weapon that we MUST identify that we do.
    When I believe the officer can ask anything he wants but, we are NOT required to answer but, if we do answer we must answer truthfully. ---cannot lie that is a crime

    Now I am just the average citizen and I understand that people take ccw classes with the hopes of learning at least the basics of carrying legally without giving up my rights.

    An important part of this is covering traffic stops and I fully believe that telling students that they should “inform” only is setting about the course of events that could lead to that person loosing those rights, under nothing more than a premise of trying to make the officer feel better.

    I myself look back on the instructor that I took my course with and I have some definite hard feelings where I believe he was interjecting his personal feeling into things rather than stating fact. I recently went back to the instructor for some updated training I needed to get Missouri CCW. & again more advice that was not in line with the law. Through a couple emails we were able to get it sorted out.

    I understand that when we are stopped we have options but make sure the students understand the options they have and giving it a blanket answer telling them to inform each time is I believe bad information.
    Now someone can correct me if I am wrong but, in summery Missouri has NO duty to inform. Further Even if asked if I have a weapon during the stop I am NOT required to answer . However it may build some trust between yourself and the officer you chance putting yourself in jeopardy by doing so.

    The thing that I find most disturbing I see in a lot of cases where Open carry/CCW incidents occur and citizens not trying to give up their rights either do not answer or avoid the question entirely are viewed as trying to cause problems or make the incident worse. I find this appalling to each of us that we cannot stand together and back each other when people are doing nothing more than trying to stand up for our rights and not be walked on by the members of our government for nothing as noble as the greater good of the people.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "The shores of history are littered with the wrecks of civilizations, where once free men trusted their rights and liberty to a wholly centralized government"

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