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Thread: MO--No duty to inform but, do you any way?

  1. #26
    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    Realteach4u,

    Also to clarify yes I am in line with your understanding as well in regards to CCW permit holders in that when asked by law enforcement to produce CCW permit we must it is in the statute we are required to carry it and produce it when asked but, I do not read where we are required to notify that we are carrying a weapon……..seems a mute point to me and even a technicality of why would any officer be asking to see a permit when they do not know if we are armed in the case where CCW would come into play.
    It would seem to me and I am sure any other rational person an officer would only be asking to produce a permit if we had either been searched and found to have a weapon on us or to have gone out of our way to notify when not required to and now the officer is digging for something. -----either of which case I see a lot of possibility of a negative outcome
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  2. #27
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    You are only required to 'display' your endorsement upon request, AND, only when you are CCW. Typically a LEO is given the endorsement but it would be interesting to see the look on a LEO's face when you say 'no, you may not hold it, but you may look at it', it is not a crime to 'fail to comply'. I think I'll try it if I get nabbed in the future.

    There is NO statute that requires you to inform a LEO that you are armed. It is no business of a LEO whether or not you are armed, ever. If the LEO wants to know whether or not your are armed, absent any criminal activity on your part, force the LEO to conduct a Terry Search.

    If you are being detained for a traffic law violation, your firearm is not relevant to the infraction. Again, if the LEO wants to know whether or not your are armed, force the LEO to conduct a Terry Search.

    The LEO will have to justify a Terry Search conducted during a traffic stop for speeding.

    Start your recording devices and keep on, keeping on.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You are only required to 'display' your endorsement upon request, AND, only when you are CCW. Typically a LEO is given the endorsement but it would be interesting to see the look on a LEO's face when you say 'no, you may not hold it, but you may look at it', it is not a crime to 'fail to comply'. I think I'll try it if I get nabbed in the future.

    There is NO statute that requires you to inform a LEO that you are armed. It is no business of a LEO whether or not you are armed, ever. If the LEO wants to know whether or not your are armed, absent any criminal activity on your part, force the LEO to conduct a Terry Search.

    If you are being detained for a traffic law violation, your firearm is not relevant to the infraction. Again, if the LEO wants to know whether or not your are armed, force the LEO to conduct a Terry Search.

    The LEO will have to justify a Terry Search conducted during a traffic stop for speeding.

    Start your recording devices and keep on, keeping on.
    This is a question regarding the "terry search" comment. I googled it to find the meaning since i didnt know what it was, and caMe across the meaning of it being due to "reasonable" suspicion of a crime. How will that help you on a traffic stop?

    And also if a LEO asks you if you have a firearm and you resist to answer, can he/she ask you to exit the vehicle and pat you down to see if you are carrying?

    Will they normal get off the hook doing it by saying it was for their safety?

  4. #29
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    A officer can do a Terry Search, for his safety, at his discretion, if you have violated the law, speeding violation in this case. He has no duty to articulate his justification for the Terry Search to you, you have violated the law.

    If you are OC he will confiscate your firearm, slap on the cuffs, sometimes, and demand ID. Do not give him your state issued ID, give him your name and address.

    If he confiscates your ID while you are on foot because he sees a pistol on your hip, he has violated your 4A right. And, in Missouri, will likely have violated a couple of other state statutes as well.

    You can be arrested in Missouri for exceeding the posted speed limit.
    RSMo 544.216 ....may arrest on view, and without a warrant, any person the officer sees violating or who such officer has reasonable grounds to believe has violated any law of this state, including a misdemeanor or infraction, or has violated any ordinance over which such officer has jurisdiction.... http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5440000216.HTM
    Do cops arrest folks for 5-10 MPH over the posted limit? Almost never. If you are driving, you being armed is not a component of his probable cause relating to him stopping you. The firearm is not a component of your 'crime' of speeding. Don't even get me started if you happen to be a passenger. Therefore, you being armed, if lawfully armed, can not be considered by the cop beyond his safety.

    If he does a Terry Search, for his safety, you must submit to that limited search. If he states that he is arresting you, you must submit. There is no legal justification in Missouri for you to resist a unlawful arrest (RSMo 575.150.4). If he arrests you he must tell by what authority he acts (RSMo 544.180).

    Sue the crap out of him and his department/city, later.

    The officer can not search for anything else on your person or in your vehicle. You are not required under the law to answer a question regarding whether or not you are armed. A CCW endorsement is not required while in your vehicle if you meet the requirements as set forth in RSMo 571.030.3.

    If you 'OC' a concealable weapon in your vehicle the officer's definition of concealed comes into play. But, it'll be a hard row to hoe for the officer to justify getting you on a weapons violation if he does a Terry Search in a NO-OC jurisdiction. He compelled you to exit your vehicle, where you are lawfully 'OC' in your vehicle, he made you violate the law by demanding that you exit the vehicle. Just because he can't see your firearm does not mean that it is concealed. But, unfortunately, only a judge can determine whether or not the cop's definition of concealed is reasonable or not.

    Only you can decide how to address the inform/do not inform issue. But, there is no statutory burden for a citizen who is lawfully armed to notify/inform a LEO that he is armed, ever.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  5. #30
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    How does a terry search help that situation tho?

  6. #31
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I understand your question, but here goes anyway.

    It is not a matter of help or hinder, a Terry Search does not help you at all, it only helps the cop.

    The cop disarms you, your confiscated property is now in the hands of a potentially negligent/incompetent individual. Your safety is actually diminished when you are disarmed by a cop. A Terry Search is not about your safety, ever, contrary to the court's 'reasoning', but only about the cops safety.

    Know the law, exercise your rights within the confines of the law.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  7. #32
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
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    If you tell a cop you have a gun, 85% of the time he'll want it (for his home collection). So you may as well just say "here, take my gun, I don't want it anymore"

  8. #33
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    In here hr states for force a leo to make a terry search. This is what im not understanding. Why would you want a terry search?

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You are only required to 'display' your endorsement upon request, AND, only when you are CCW. Typically a LEO is given the endorsement but it would be interesting to see the look on a LEO's face when you say 'no, you may not hold it, but you may look at it', it is not a crime to 'fail to comply'. I think I'll try it if I get nabbed in the future.

    There is NO statute that requires you to inform a LEO that you are armed. It is no business of a LEO whether or not you are armed, ever. If the LEO wants to know whether or not your are armed, absent any criminal activity on your part, force the LEO to conduct a Terry Search.

    If you are being detained for a traffic law violation, your firearm is not relevant to the infraction. Again, if the LEO wants to know whether or not your are armed, force the LEO to conduct a Terry Search.

    The LEO will have to justify a Terry Search conducted during a traffic stop for speeding.

    Start your recording devices and keep on, keeping on.

  9. #34
    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Terry Search

    Just my take,,

    By forcing a "Terry Search" you are forcing the officer to give RAS....pretty simple.

    Now....I think I said this before...but.. never and I mean never ask this question, "Am I being detained?"

    It is an open ended question and the officer can say anything he wants....the correct question is " WHY am I being detained?"

    I hope you see the subtle difference, but it means the world!!
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

  10. #35
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I do not think anyone wants a Terry Search because a Terry Search requires the LEO to suspect you of criminal activity. If you are not engaged in criminal activity then a Terry Search would be a illegal seizure and search by the LEO. The LEO must take this into consideration. Again, the officer is the one that must articulate what he thought justified a Terry Search, to a judge, after the fact.

    This is why LEOs may try to get you to voluntarily comply with his 'request(s)' during a 'consensual contact' for ID or to answer the question regarding whether or not you are armed. The LEO can not be accused of a illegal seizure and search if you agree to his request. So, knowing the law, acting lawfully, helps you and forces the LEO to detain you and do the Terry Search knowing that he may not be able to justify his actions.

    The vast majority of LEOs are professional and knowledgeable regarding the law. They are pretty quick to assess a citizen in any given situation and usually take a course of action that respects the citizen's rights, to the extent possible given the situation, while performing his duties within the confines of the law. I do not think the average LEO wants to be referred to as a rights violating thug.

    Again, only you can decide the lawful course of action to take while you are lawfully OCing. Acting lawfully does not always guarantee that you will not be contacted by LE, even illegally seized and searched. We can not know what the LEO knows or thinks he knows. We can only react to the LEOs actions within the confines of the law.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  11. #36
    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This is why LEOs may try to get you to voluntarily comply with his 'request(s)' during a 'consensual contact' for ID or to answer the question regarding whether or not you are armed. The LEO can not be accused of a illegal seizure and search if you agree to his request. So, knowing the law, acting lawfully, helps you and forces the LEO to detain you and do the Terry Search knowing that he may not be able to justify his actions.

    The vast majority of LEOs are professional and knowledgeable regarding the law. .
    May try to get you?....it is their job....Officers have to "justify" every stop, why do you think you see them near the station everyday parked in some off the way place before the end of their shift filling out paper work?

    The one thing that I hope everyone gets is that these officers are people too. They have families and with that they have problems just as we do. That said, they have bad days. The difference is they have a Badge, and with that so called authourity, they can make your life a living hell.

    I know many LEO's...hell I get drunk with many of them, but don't think for one second if they can justify a stop, they will do so.

    Hence, "Why are you detaining me?"

    Leo's know the law?....sorry...laughable....They know what they can make up, to charge you...whether it sticks or not, they don't care...."justify"....then let the courts handle it!!

    Quota met!
    Last edited by zekester; 05-10-2012 at 12:58 PM.
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

  12. #37
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Good points zekester.....may beat the rap, but not the ride.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  13. #38
    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    +1

    I personally know one officer that was let go in Rolla, for refusing to pull people over for a tailight being out. He was fired....he is now a Lt in the Maryland Heights Police Department.

    Common sense goes along way.
    Last edited by zekester; 05-10-2012 at 01:16 PM.
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

  14. #39
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    Duty to inform

    I was looking through the laws because I was curious myself, and it says you must provide your CCW permit when asked.

    "Duty to carry and display endorsement, penalty for violation:

    571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry endorsement pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall carry the concealed carry endorsement at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry endorsement upon the request of any peace officer. Failure to comply with this subsection shall not be a criminal offense but the concealed carry endorsement holder may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed thirty- five dollars."

  15. #40
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Most LEO act like they don't know the actual law. It's not a law that requires you to tell them IF you have a firearm. It's not a law to show them anything if you are not armed and you've left your permit at home. It's not a law you have to tell them where the firearm (if any) is located.

    It's only a law with a minor penalty to show them the permit if they ask and if you are armed.

    Yet ask several different LEOs and you'll get 10 different answers. (I've done that at a gun show).

    If I'm not driving do I have to show you a permit if asked and we're pulled over for a broken tail light? Yes, no, maybe, probably, depends.

    Most will say (in a non-declare state) that if you have a traffic stop you have to tell them if you have a firearm and show them the permit along with the driver's license. That's not true. They have to ask to see your permit and that's ALL. (read your local laws to be sure).

    If they like they can arrest you for loitering, resisting, or any number of things. You take the ride.

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