Forced to leave Best Buy

Kingfish said:

Colorado constitution is irrelevant. Maybe a summary of OC law from a reputable source....Just to show that it is legal. Maybe take a friend...Volunteers?

You are ASKING that he change his policy to align with corporate policy. If he refuses this polite request then you go back to corporate and escalate.

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M-Taliesin said:

Howdy Kingfish!
I don't believe that the Colorado Constitution is in the least irrelevant, especially in this particular case, with the former LEO security type being who they relied upon for the legality of our friend open carrying. He stated he didn't believe it was legal. Ergo, the stipulations found in the Colorado Constitution in Article 2 would be keenly relevant as they form the basis of Colorado law:

Section 3. Inalienable rights. All persons have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

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I've been following this thread with some interest to see how the OP decided to resolve the situation. I've been fascinated by some of the give-and-take. But it sounds like it is time for a basic Civics/Government lesson in Colorado.

Your State Constitution, like the Federal Constitution, imposes limits on the behavior of the government. It cannot, and was never intended to, control the actions of private businesses. When dealing with Best Buy you have no federal 2A rights, nor any Colorado Section 3/Section 13 rights. What you have is the right of the business owner to set and enforce rules so long as they are not blatantly illegal and do not violate certain rights of certain specified minorities who are being protected now because of past discrimination conducted under the power and cover of then-existing laws. Gun owners in general, and Open Carriers, are not one of those specified minorities. If you are a Black/American Indian female head of a TANF/SNAP-eligible household single lesbian transgendered quadrapelegic mentally challenged Aleut-Samoan/Pacific Islander owner of a business with more than $10,000/year in income from state contracts (and I'm sure I missed a few) who legally owns a handgun and wants to bring it with you to Best Buy or any other business while the store either posts signs saying "No Firearms" or verbally tells any customer seen with a firearm to take it outside, there are no constitutional rights that are being trampled on when Best Buy/other business does so.

Maybe you can go back to discussing how to negotiate with te Store Manager and educate him on both corporate policy and the truth about OCers being 17 times more law abiding than the local cops, as well as 35* times less likely to shoot anyone during their lifetime.

stay safe,

*that last one is admittedly a SWAG, based on a very fuzzy memory of some statistics I saw somewhere once upon a time. Someone could read John Lott's book and probably find a solid statistic from (at this time) more than a decade ago. There are more firearms owners now than when he wrote his book, but the percentage of firearm owners who have shot anybody is even lower now.

skidmark said:

Someone could read John Lott's book and probably find a solid statistic from (at this time) more than a decade ago. There are more firearms owners now than when he wrote his book, but the percentage of firearm owners who have shot anybody is even lower now.

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The third edition of More Guns, Less Crime was published in May of 2010.

His web site http://www.johnlott.org/ includes "Instructions for Obtaining John R. Lott's Raw Data. Most of this data involves STATA 7.0 data sets. The reason for using this is that the county level data involves a much larger set of control variables than can readily be handled by other statistical packages. The data sets can be obtained by clicking on the following links which will take you to the download page ..."

Kingfish said:

My suggestion would be to take a writeup on OC laws

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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "OPEN CARRY LAW"!!!* LAWS PROHIBIT BEHAVIOR; THEY DO NOT PERMIT IT. IF IT IS NOT PROHIBITED, IT IS LEGAL.

:banghead:

*UNLESS ONE IS UNFORTUNATE ENOUGH TO LIVE IN A GOD-FORSAKEN HELLHOLE WHERE OPEN CARRY HAS BEEN MADE ILLEGAL BY A TREASONOUS LEGISLATURE OR CITY COUNCIL.

ManInBlack said:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "OPEN CARRY LAW"!!!* LAWS PROHIBIT BEHAVIOR; THEY DO NOT PERMIT IT. IF IT IS NOT PROHIBITED, IT IS LEGAL.

:banghead:

*UNLESS ONE IS UNFORTUNATE ENOUGH TO LIVE IN A GOD-FORSAKEN HELLHOLE WHERE OPEN CARRY HAS BEEN MADE ILLEGAL BY A TREASONOUS LEGISLATURE OR CITY COUNCIL.

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So, print out the whole CRS or take a blank piece of paper? Again....For the reading comprehension impaired....Take a writeup on WHY OC is lawful in CO.

Kingfish said:

You talk a lot but you don't like to listen do you?

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He is 'listening' just fine. You aren't. You seem to be 'projecting.'

Kingfish said:

Just showing the constitution(s) does NOT show that OC is legal. Just like it does not show that OC is legal in Denver, some public buildings, outdoor spaces or the elevator at the mall. Legislatures regularly disregard the constitution. If this was in Denver, what good would taking the constitution do?

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Sigh. Laws don't make something legal, laws make things illegal. You don't get it.

The constitution of the state is VERY relevant. And as for Denver, statute (local) makes the determination as to illegal or not.

Kingfish said:

I am sure there is a writeup somewhere that shows WHY and HOW and WHERE OC is legal....Because it is NOT legal everywhere as the constitution(s) require.

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Nope, that is quite doubtful. Unless some statute has made OC illegal, there won't be statute or write-up showing where the exceptions to non-existent statute are.

Kingfish said:

So, print out the whole CRS or take a blank piece of paper? Again....For the reading comprehension impaired....Take a writeup on WHY OC is lawful in CO.

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Sheesh! Argumentative much?


Here is a valid write-up on WHY OC is legal in CO.

"No statute exists that denies the Right that the CO Constitution enumerates."


As for 'print out?' No. Simply follow the above sentence with this.

"If you feel that OC isn't legal, print out the statute that you feel makes it illegal."


First and foremost, what hasn't been made illegal by statute IS legal. Do you understand that or not?

skidmark said:

I've been following this thread with some interest to see how the OP decided to resolve the situation. I've been fascinated by some of the give-and-take. But it sounds like it is time for a basic Civics/Government lesson in Colorado.

Your State Constitution, like the Federal Constitution, imposes limits on the behavior of the government. It cannot, and was never intended to, control the actions of private businesses. When dealing with Best Buy you have no federal 2A rights, nor any Colorado Section 3/Section 13 rights. What you have is the right of the business owner to set and enforce rules so long as they are not blatantly illegal and do not violate certain rights of certain specified minorities who are being protected now because of past discrimination conducted under the power and cover of then-existing laws. Gun owners in general, and Open Carriers, are not one of those specified minorities. If you are a Black/American Indian female head of a TANF/SNAP-eligible household single lesbian transgendered quadrapelegic mentally challenged Aleut-Samoan/Pacific Islander owner of a business with more than $10,000/year in income from state contracts (and I'm sure I missed a few) who legally owns a handgun and wants to bring it with you to Best Buy or any other business while the store either posts signs saying "No Firearms" or verbally tells any customer seen with a firearm to take it outside, there are no constitutional rights that are being trampled on when Best Buy/other business does so.

Maybe you can go back to discussing how to negotiate with te Store Manager and educate him on both corporate policy and the truth about OCers being 17 times more law abiding than the local cops, as well as 35* times less likely to shoot anyone during their lifetime.

stay safe,

*that last one is admittedly a SWAG, based on a very fuzzy memory of some statistics I saw somewhere once upon a time. Someone could read John Lott's book and probably find a solid statistic from (at this time) more than a decade ago. There are more firearms owners now than when he wrote his book, but the percentage of firearm owners who have shot anybody is even lower now.

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Yes, but.


If the corporate policy is to 'follow state law,' the Constitution is the basis for that. And, if the local manager understands that BB policy is to follow state law, the statment to that manager should be 'OC is not illegal,' so OC should be supported and allowed. And, I agree that if the store does continue to deny OC, it isn't a violation of a Right, it simply places a decision point in front of the prospective customer; disarm and shop, or remain armed and shop elsewhere.

wrightme said:

First and foremost, what hasn't been made illegal by statute IS legal. Do you understand that or not?

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That was never in dispute...By me at least.

So, you are telling me that there is NO writeup ANYWHERE telling WHY OC is legal in CO? I find that odd but I have not looked. I know a lot of states have "OC pamphlets" that folks can hand out to uninformed folks showing WHY OC is legal.

The OP simply walking into BB and saying "There is no law against OC, therefore it is legal"...I don't think that is going to fly.

Kingfish said:

That was never in dispute...By me at least.

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Really? Then why did you say "My suggestion would be to take a writeup on OC laws"? How can there be a writeup on something that doesn't exist?

Kingfish said:

So, you are telling me that there is NO writeup ANYWHERE telling WHY OC is legal in CO? I find that odd but I have not looked. I know a lot of states have "OC pamphlets" that folks can hand out to uninformed folks showing WHY OC is legal.

The OP simply walking into BB and saying "There is no law against OC, therefore it is legal"...I don't think that is going to fly.

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Why not? That IS the reality.

As for an OC pamphlet, that might be useful, but given how you kept referring to CRS printouts, I didn't get 'take an OC pamphlet with you to give them' from your comment.

wrightme said:

Here is a valid write-up on WHY OC is legal in CO.

"No statute exists that denies the Right that the CO Constitution enumerates."

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What about Denver? What about "public transportation"? What about some public buildings? What about some parks? What about "under the influence"? What about those deemed not worthy by the state? What about snowmobiles?

There are a LOT of statutes that are in conflict with the Colorado Constitution.

wrightme said:

Why not? That IS the reality.

As for an OC pamphlet, that might be useful, but given how you kept referring to CRS printouts, I didn't get 'take an OC pamphlet with you to give them' from your comment.

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Please quote my post where I said take a CRS printout...Would not do much good now would it? My first post on the matter was...

Maybe a summary of OC law from a reputable source.

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I then went on to discuss taking something to show WHY OC is legal.

Are there any AG opinions on the subject? Does RMGO (I know they are anti-OC) have a writeup? Any caselaw? This is the stuff I am talking about.

I actually let it go while ago heheh. If I shop at BB it'll probably be online or through Amazon. If I have to go back, then I'll go back but I'll step out if asked and call corporate. Plus finals are coming up and I can't really afford to get distracted. I could go back with the email and some documents to get an apology from the store, but as of now it's not that important to me. As stated somewhere above, this was a learning experience. I did get an apology from corporate and I'm taking it for what it is. So if I do get hassled again...I'll know what to do...

*this isnt giving up...its a tactical retreat*

Thanks guys d(^_^d)

Kingfish said:

What about Denver? What about "public transportation"? What about some public buildings? What about some parks? What about "under the influence"? What about those deemed not worthy by the state? What about snowmobiles?

There are a LOT of statutes that are in conflict with the Colorado Constitution.

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What about all of those?

NONE of that is relevant to the topic at hand, which is a discussion with a Best Buy store manager in a city other than denver.


For the store in question, the ONLY relevant item is the Constitution, and the fact that no law makes OC in that place illegal. Why would it matter about 'Denver, public transportaiton, public buildings/parks/UI/snowmobiles?' Why would he bring up ANY of that? It would simply muddy the waters with things that are completely irrelevant to the discussion about whether BB follows/supports state law or not.

wrightme said:

Kingfish said:

The OP simply walking into BB and saying "There is no law against OC, therefore it is legal"...I don't think that is going to fly.

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Why not? That IS the reality.

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Is this really a question? The OP already tried that in the initial encounter. Taking something on paper for the manager to look at and maybe do some research on his own would be much more effective.

Kingfish said:

Please quote my post where I said take a CRS printout...Would not do much good now would it? My first post on the matter was...I then went on to discuss taking something to show WHY OC is legal.

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Kingfish said:

So, print out the whole CRS or take a blank piece of paper? Again....For the reading comprehension impaired....Take a writeup on WHY OC is lawful in CO.

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Why do you feel the need to insult others?

Kingfish said:

Are there any AG opinions on the subject? Does RMGO (I know they are anti-OC) have a writeup? Any caselaw? This is the stuff I am talking about.

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Why do you assume that there even would be such a writeup?

Kingfish said:

Is this really a question? The OP already tried that in the initial encounter. Taking something on paper for the manager to look at and maybe do some research on his own would be much more effective.

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That was before he spoke to and received a response from corporate.


And, yes, it was really a question. You felt that something wouldn't fly, so I asked you 'why not.'

The question remains, why wouldn't it fly, given the response from corporate? The onus should be on the manager to support HIS position. Given that state law doesn't make OC illegal, then BB policy should not deny that lawful activity in its stores. No AG opinion or case law would be required for that which wasn't even questionable. Given that there isn't a state statute about OC, where would case law or AG opinion originate?

wrightme said:

Why would it matter about 'Denver, public transportaiton, public buildings/parks/UI/snowmobiles?' Why would he bring up ANY of that? It would simply muddy the waters with things that are completely irrelevant to the discussion about whether BB follows/supports state law or not.

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I am not saying to bring any of that up. YOU are saying that there is NO LAW that abridges the CO constitution. However, clearly there are. YOU say there is no law against OC when there are in fact several. YOU say that all he needs in the constitution to prove there is no law against OC....I am saying that the state has already shown that the constitution is meaningless. It is a good side note that CO has a nice clear passage concerning self defense in its constitution but it does not really mean anything as long as the legislature can ignore it at will...Which it has clearly done. The CO legislature could ban OC TODAY and there is nothing anybody can do about it but take it up to the CO supreme court where it may or may not be struck down...How did the last case turn out? You get another tie and no OC in CO.

wrightme said:

No AG opinion or case law would be required for that which wasn't even questionable. Given that there isn't a state statute about OC, where would case law or AG opinion originate?

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But it IS questionable. Denver bans OC and the CO supreme court upholds it (by default). There are state statutes against OC...Several of them.

Kingfish said:

I am not saying to bring any of that up. YOU are saying that there is NO LAW that abridges the CO constitution.

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Nope, I didn't say that. I stated that there was no law making OC illegal. There are statutes that define some prohibited locations, but those are the exceptions.


As a suggestion, work more towards communication, as opposed to attempting to win an argument.

Kingfish said:

But it IS questionable. Denver bans OC and the CO supreme court upholds it (by default). There are state statutes against OC...Several of them.

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Yet, once again, since you desire to gloss right past it, it isn't relevant to the subject of the OP.