Forced to leave Best Buy

wrightme said:

Yet, once again, since you desire to gloss right past it, it isn't relevant to the subject of the OP.

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But it is. Simply taking the constitution and saying there are NO laws against OC is not truthful. If the manager asks "So, there are no laws against OC AT ALL?" you cannot answer "that is correct". The CO constitution is meaningless. Hell, the city where this took place could pass a ban on OC at any time. They MIGHT have to eventually drop their ban but it would be in force until a court shoots it down.

IF Denver's ban is ever revisited and overturned then yeah, maybe but does not look like that is going to happen for a long time.

Howdy Gentlemen!
Interesting debate we seem to have here.
To me, the basic elements are:

1. OP open carried into Best Buy.
2. Best Buy manager approached with questions.
3. OP answered, best he could under the circumstances.
4. Best Buy Manager asked his former LEO security guy about the legality of open carry.
5. Former LEO gave his opinion based on lack of knowledge of the law.
6. Based on what he thought was reliable information from the former LEO (after all, he should know the law, right?) he asked OP to leave.

The basic problem is that their stance took root in the opinion of a former LEO who got it wrong.

The only legal precedent to support open carry, spelled out without ambiguity and clearly stated is Article 2, section 13 of the Colorado Constitution. It isn't spelled out in any CRS of which I am aware.

The basic issue is that the Best Buy manager acted on the basis of what his former LEO security guy said.
The quickest, easiest way to dispell that mistaken information would be to show A2/S13 and ask for his LEO to provde any CRS contrary to that specific statement of a right to open carry. Unable to so do, he'd soon be faced with an opportunity to recant his former opinion.

Then again, as I mentioned earlier, the Adams County Sheriff's office website, section on Concealed Carry Permits, FAQ's, states very clearly that OC is legal in Colorado with few exceptions.

Maybe that particular page might serve the purpose. But the location in question is not in Adams County, and I don't know of another LEA that states the reality so clearly as does Adams County... aside, of course, from the Colorado Constitution A2/S13.

You can view it here:
http://apps.adcogov.org/sheriff/chp_main.html
Do I need a concealed handgun permit?
By law, you are not required to have a concealed handgun permit to possess a handgun concealed inside your vehicle, your home or your place of business. You may also carry a handgun visibly on your person without a permit in most public places in Colorado. There are exceptions, such as posted areas and government/school buildings, and/or cities with ordinances forbidding that practice.

Perhaps that could serve as a "write up" of some sort.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Kingfish said:

But it is. Simply taking the constitution and saying there are NO laws against OC is not truthful.

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Good thing that I didn't suggest he do that then.

Once again, maybe if you were to spend effort to share information, as opposed to attempting to win an argument......


Specifically, since you seem to prefer to misrepresent what I say:

"State Statute does not make OC illegal."


There ARE some statutes that carve out exceptions to that reality, which isn't the same thing.

As example, state statute DOES make CC illegal.

There are statutes that carve out exception to that reality.

Kingfish said:

If the manager asks "So, there are no laws against OC AT ALL?" you cannot answer "that is correct". The CO constitution is meaningless. Hell, the city where this took place could pass a ban on OC at any time. They MIGHT have to eventually drop their ban but it would be in force until a court shoots it down.

IF Denver's ban is ever revisited and overturned then yeah, maybe but does not look like that is going to happen for a long time.

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Yes, if all you desire is to argue about it, then sure.

But, the reality for the OP topic is that 'no state statute makes OC illegal.' The answer to a hypothetical question by the manager is 'I know of no statute that makes OC in Best Buy in Loveland illegal.' Remember, don't muddy the waters, right?

Kingfish said:

Hell, the city where this took place could pass a ban on OC at any time. They MIGHT have to eventually drop their ban but it would be in force until a court shoots it down.

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Howdy Amigo!
That would be both wasted energy and unlikely as all get-out.
The courts have already ruled (Meiers Decision) that the state has pre-emption in this regard.
No city or jurisdiction can outright ban open carry with limited exceptions as pertain to goverment buildings, parks, and similar such exceptions with appropriate posting to that effect.

Any city attorney would immediately inform that the proposed change to municode would violate state preemption.

The only reason Denver got away with it was by virtue of being grand-fathered in before the preemptive language was applied to state law.
In other words, they got in before the law was made. Being a home rule city, they got latitude in the Meiers decision by that fact. That would be why Denver is the only exception.

Regardless, it may yet end up getting shot down by the courts. We've been awaiting news on a current case that may change Denver's status; or at least that's what many hope will happen.

Hope that helps clarify.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Kingfish said:

So, print out the whole CRS or take a blank piece of paper? Again....For the reading comprehension impaired....Take a writeup on WHY OC is lawful in CO.

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Open carry is legal because there is no law against it (outside of Denver). There is a law against concealed carry, with certain exceptions, and there are laws against carrying at all into certain places, with exceptions.

There is no statutory sentence that you can pull out and put on a piece of paper that will do what you want, which is to allow you to point at it and say, "LOOK LOOK! Open carry is legal!!! Seeeeee!!!!"

This is the way the law works. If you don't like it, don't take it up with me; take it up with over 1000 years of Anglo-Saxon common law legal tradition.

I have also OC'd in Best Buy without issue. I think they leave up to management to decide if it is allowed.

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Nope. Store managers don't have authority to override Corporate policy. Corporate HQ IS posted, but as far as store locations they do indeed follow local rules. Now, the AP guy could have been misapplying the employee handbook, but that doesn't apply to customers.

Kingfish said:

<snip> I am saying that the state has already shown that the constitution is meaningless. <snip>

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Thanks. I'm sure all my fellow Coloradans appreciated that remark as much as I did. Please don't ever cross the state line, we're better off without people who disrespect our state. I don't come over to the Georgia forum and badmouth your state government, you should do the same. Please stay out of the Colorado forums.

livetrapper13 said:

Thanks. I'm sure all my fellow Coloradans appreciated that remark as much as I did. Please don't ever cross the state line, we're better off without people who disrespect our state. I don't come over to the Georgia forum and badmouth your state government, you should do the same. Please stay out of the Colorado forums.

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Kingfish may be wrong in this argument, but you do realize that criticizing a state government is not the same as criticizing the state, don't you?

I've said many times that California could be one of the best states, based on natural resources, scenic beauty, variety of geography, and pleasantness of climate. However, their government is sufficiently bad as to prohibit any man who values his freedom from living there.

livetrapper13 said:

Thanks. I'm sure all my fellow Coloradans appreciated that remark as much as I did. Please don't ever cross the state line, we're better off without people who disrespect our state. I don't come over to the Georgia forum and badmouth your state government, you should do the same. Please stay out of the Colorado forums.

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I have been to Colorado. Actually Colorado Springs. OCed the entire time I was there. Plan on moving there very soon.

See, there is not a single constitution in this country that means anything. They all did at one time but not anymore. I do wonder how you take personal offense to a statement of fact...That the constitution in CO (and GA, every other state and the feds) is blatantly ignored by the legislature and the courts.

I will NOT be staying out of the Colorado forums. You find something offensive in my posts, there is a little report button beside each one of them. It is a small triangle with an exclamation point inside. Use them as you see fit. Alternately, there is an ignore feature on the site. You are welcome to use that as well.

Can we get a lock on this one?
Flag on the play?
Anything?

This thing has gone so far out I really wish it could just be done...
Please?

JamesB said:

Can we get a lock on this one?
Flag on the play?
Anything?

This thing has gone so far out I really wish it could just be done...
Please?

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And yet you just couldn't resist posting one more time...

Dear hair-splitting out-of-staters with nothing better to do but nitpick what the meaning of is is,

The winds in Boulder get wicked with it being at the base of on the order of 13-odd canyons. Winds in Denver among the skyscrapers make some serious drafts that even raptors are comfortable riding them to hunt pigeons. Out on the plains, we're up on the end of tornado alley and they'll be plenty hefty even without a twister.

Point being: Regardless of which way the wind is blowing, you just look like an idiot 9!$$ing into it. So, here, *hands across a towel*, wipe yourself down, have a seat, and refill with a microbrew. Next time, seriously, point it downwind.

The rest of you friendly visitors, make yourselves comfortable. I'll be right back with more green chili and tortillas.

mahkagari said:

Dear hair-splitting out-of-staters with nothing better to do but nitpick what the meaning of is is,

The winds in Boulder get wicked with it being at the base of on the order of 13-odd canyons. Winds in Denver among the skyscrapers make some serious drafts that even raptors are comfortable riding them to hunt pigeons. Out on the plains, we're up on the end of tornado alley and they'll be plenty hefty even without a twister.

Point being: Regardless of which way the wind is blowing, you just look like an idiot 9!$$ing into it. So, here, *hands across a towel*, wipe yourself down, have a seat, and refill with a microbrew. Next time, seriously, point it downwind.

The rest of you friendly visitors, make yourselves comfortable. I'll be right back with more green chili and tortillas.

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Howdy Mahkagari!
You do have a colorful turn of phrase, I'll hand you that! A tip of my expensive Stetson there amigo! Well said.
Trouble is, half of those who read your words aren't likely to grasp them as well as those of us who live around these parts.
I've often said, if I were a couple of blocks further east, I'd qualify for a Kansas zip code!

What we could use is a good ole fashioned Colorado Zephyr to blow through and clear the air.

Too bad we ain't got snow, or a chinook would be nifty. Except right now, dry as a bone around here, all it would do is bring in more warmth than we really need this early on!
Give me a heads-up when the green chili and tortillas are ready to go! I'm hankering for some like Pavlov's mutt!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

ManInBlack said:

Kingfish may be wrong in this argument, but you do realize that criticizing a state government is not the same as criticizing the state, don't you?

I've said many times that California could be one of the best states, based on natural resources, scenic beauty, variety of geography, and pleasantness of climate. However, their government is sufficiently bad as to prohibit any man who values his freedom from living there.

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Having moved out of Colorado for school, I have come to realize how great of a state it is. Not just for the mountains, climate, and all the other natural resources. It is a great state because our state government is, for the most part, doing whats right. You can really do whatever you want to. The fact that I can open carry, or have a pistol in my car is great. I didn't realize how great it was until I moved to a state that is not so friendly to gun owners. As soon as my schooling is finished I will be moving back to Colorado. I take offense to anyone criticizing Colorado's government because I believe they are doing a great job. Its very easy for others to criticize the government when it is doing wrong, yet they hardly notice when that same government does a great job.

livetrapper13 said:

I take offense to anyone criticizing Colorado's government because I believe they are doing a great job.

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(Begin sarcasm) Right. All that progress they made over the last couple years in regards to gun rights. Wish more states would....Wait, what? NO progress has been made...Oh, sorry. Or did I miss where they repealed the ban on carry in public buildings, public transportation, snowmobiles? Did I miss the state's AG or legislature doing all they can to get another case going to repeal Denver's gun ban(s)? Constitutional carry failed last year? Really...WOW...Shocked I am. Well, at least the governor is pro gun...Oops, he was the mayor of Denver?...Sorry my bad.(End sarcasm)

Colorado is truly an amazing state. I cannot wait to return...I say this as the temp is 91° 51% humidity here in Atlanta right now.

On the bright side, I am quoted in someone's sig. Must be doing something right.

Kingfish said:

(Begin sarcasm) Right. All that progress they made over the last couple years in regards to gun rights. Wish more states would....Wait, what? NO progress has been made...Oh, sorry. Or did I miss where they repealed the ban on carry in public buildings, public transportation, snowmobiles? Did I miss the state's AG or legislature doing all they can to get another case going to repeal Denver's gun ban(s)? Constitutional carry failed last year? Really...WOW...Shocked I am. Well, at least the governor is pro gun...Oops, he was the mayor of Denver?...Sorry my bad.(End sarcasm)

Colorado is truly an amazing state. I cannot wait to return...I say this as the temp is 91° 51% humidity here in Atlanta right now.

On the bright side, I am quoted in someone's sig. Must be doing something right.

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You forgot to mention the campus gun ban the Colorado Supreme Court struck down about a month ago.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingn...reme-court-affirms-that-licensed-guns-allowed

livetrapper13 said:

You forgot to mention the campus gun ban the Colorado Supreme Court struck down about a month ago.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingn...reme-court-affirms-that-licensed-guns-allowed

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I see. So, it is only the courts that are doing a great job? Or that court anyway...On that day. 1 branch of 3 made one good decision. How does that translate into the "government" doing a "great job"? I could go on and on about what the government has done to erode rights and how it is uninterested in restoring any of them but I think the point is made. Until such time as those in "government" are replaced with ones that have the same love of liberty as the fellas that wrote the documents they took an oath to protect there will be no real progress in restoring RIGHTS to the citizens of Colorado or elsewhere.

You know, Kingfish is right. I got a written warning on my door yesterday from the town ordinance enforcement about "overgrown weeds/grass". I just mowed my lawn the day before and my absentee neighbor has dandelion stalks a foot high. I'm going to do a walk around the perimeter to make sure there's not a corner with a rogue thistle I overlooked, but damn, really? A written WARNING??? I purposefully live without an HOA for just such encroachment on private property rights. But this is a government official!! See??? Perfect example that the Colorado government just plain sucks!! And don't even get me started on the god-awful perriwinkle shirts on their code officer vs. regular police! And you know what? I went to town hall one day to get info from the Town Manager about a job opening for a friend of mine, and wouldn't you know it, the waiting area candy dish didn't have ANY of the strawberry chews I like. Not even any toffee!!

¡¡¡Viva la revolucion!!!

OT

M-Taliesin said:

A tip of my expensive Stetson there amigo!

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said in a purely sarcastic voice You're pretty persistent about showing off that hat.....(hope you find the humor in that as much as I do)




Back to your regularly schedule argument.

The truly sad thing in this whole story is that there were other customers that felt terrorized simply because they saw someone exercising their constitutional rights. We have become a nation of fearful sheep that cringe at the slightest thing. IMHO, the best thing about OC is seeing these kind of people cringing. It makes me laugh everytime I see a grown man look scared when he sees someone with an openly displayed sidearm.