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Thread: Michigan no longer has "perfect" reciprocity

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Michigan no longer has "perfect" reciprocity

    It's being reported New Mexico is dropping Michigan and many other states from state's they honor.

    http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1418475
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Their reason as near as I can figure is because the counties issue the licenses (gun boards) instead of the state.

    Apparently in the strange World New Mexico lives in it some how matters.

    The real answer of course is that the guy making the decision is an anti gunner, and he's using any excuse he can find to cut as many states as possible.
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 04-30-2012 at 03:44 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Their reason as near as I can figure is because the counties issue the licenses (gun boards) instead of the state.

    Apparently in the strange World New Mexico lives in it some how matters.

    The real answer of course is that the guy making the decision is an anti gunner, and he's using any excuse he can find to cut as many states as possible.
    I think you're exactly right.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    When I was 22, having no CCW type permit whatsoever, driving through New Mexico with my Sig on my side was something special. It was the first time I ever carried in a car. I felt like I was in heaven when I got passed by some mexican or native american dude on a loud Harley, long hair flapping in the wind, wearing no helmet, doing about 85.

    It's a gold star open carry state with extended domain in your car. If I remember right, unchambered CC doesn't require a permit. It is among the freest states in the country, whether or not you hold a carry license.

    I for one consider this to be almost meaningless.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-30-2012 at 12:12 PM.
    Think Free or Serve. Live Free or Die.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    The guy making decisions must be "racist" against northerners
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    When I was 22, having no CCW type permit whatsoever, driving through New Mexico with my Sig on my side was something special. It was the first time I ever carried in a car. I felt like I was in heaven when I got passed by some mexican or native american dude on a loud Harley, long hair flapping in the wind, wearing no helmet, doing about 85.

    It's a gold star open carry state with extended domain in your car. If I remember right, unchambered CC doesn't require a permit. It is among the freest states in the country, whether or not you hold a carry license.

    I for one consider this to be almost meaningless.
    Too bad they have strict CC requirements and have many PFZs. It's my understanding it's illegal to OC into a place like Walmart that sells alcohol (even with a carry permit). Here is what I found on handgunlaws.us when it comes to places that sell liquor. To me it would really suck to not be able to open carry into places that simply sell liquor, oh wait I do it now! And it does suck! Of course if you have a carry permit you can always conceal there but still. NM may be shall issue but they really don't seem like a very good carry state as far as laws are concerned.

    30-7-3. Unlawful Carrying Of A Firearm In Licensed Liquor Establishments. (Restaurant Carry Legal)
    A. Unlawful carrying of a firearm in an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages consists of carrying a loaded or unloaded firearm on any premises licensed by the regulation and licensing department for the dispensing of alcoholic beverages except:
    (1) by a law enforcement officer in the lawful discharge of the officer's duties; (2) by a law enforcement officer who is certified pursuant to the Law Enforcement Training Act
    acting in accordance with the policies of the officer's law enforcement agency; (3) by the owner, lessee, tenant or operator of the licensed premises or the owner's, lessee's, tenant's
    or operator's agents, including privately employed security personnel during the performance of
    their duties; (4) by a person carrying a concealed handgun who is in possession of a valid concealed handgun
    license for that gun pursuant to the Concealed Handgun Carry Act on the premises of: (a) a licensed establishment that does not sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the
    premises; or (b) a restaurant licensed to sell only beer and wine that derives no less than sixty percent of its
    annual gross receipts from the sale of food for consumption on the premises, unless the restaurant has a sign posted, in a conspicuous location at each public entrance, prohibiting the carrying of firearms, or the person is verbally instructed by the owner or manager that the carrying of a firearm is not permitted in the restaurant;
    (5) by a person in that area of the licensed premises usually and primarily rented on a daily or short- term basis for sleeping or residential occupancy, including hotel or motel rooms;
    (6) by a person on that area of a licensed premises primarily used for vehicular traffic or parking; or (7) for the purpose of temporary display, provided that the firearm is:
    (a) made completely inoperative before it is carried onto the licensed premises and remains inoperative while it is on the licensed premises; and
    (b) under the control of the licensee or an agent of the licensee while the firearm is on the licensed premises.
    B. Whoever commits unlawful carrying of a firearm in an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages is guilty of a fourth degree felony. The effective date of the provisions of this act is July 1, 2010.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The guy making decisions must be "racist" against northerners
    I agree. You think we can get Sharpton and Jackson to support us in the "outrage" over this?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Too bad they have strict CC requirements and have many PFZs. It's my understanding it's illegal to OC into a place like Walmart that sells alcohol (even with a carry permit). Here is what I found on handgunlaws.us when it comes to places that sell liquor. To me it would really suck to not be able to open carry into places that simply sell liquor, oh wait I do it now! And it does suck! Of course if you have a carry permit you can always conceal there but still. NM may be shall issue but they really don't seem like a very good carry state as far as laws are concerned.
    Would be easier to just ban alcohol. Solves so many problems.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Would be easier to just ban alcohol. Solves so many problems.
    For Pot but Ban Alcohol?
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Partial sarcasm. But give the choice between one or the other, yes. The impact on society from alcohol is often tragic, from pot, its usually just amusing.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Partial sarcasm. But give the choice between one or the other, yes. The impact on society from alcohol is often tragic, from pot, its usually just amusing.
    I actually agree on this one... but only if a choice between the two is made and everything else is equal. But, its not.
    OT:
    I emailed the Office of the MI Attorney General to inform them of the change.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    It's now being reported NM is backing down on some of the states. This is their current list, which Michigan is on.

    As we continue our audit and make changes accordingly, this page will be updated to reflect the most current information. This information is current as of May 1, 2012
    New Mexico currently recognizes concealed carry permits from or has reciprocal agreements with the following states: Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 05-01-2012 at 08:37 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    It's now being reported NM is backing down on some of the states. This is their current list, which Michigan is on.
    Can you imagine being there on vacation and being cited for CC w/out a permit? Depending on what day and time you are stopped, you could either be legal or illegal. What a bunch of @$$&*!#$
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Bike trip

    Planned to leave next week with an other rider for the four corners. Was going CC most of the way and travel through NM but I'll suggest that we travel through Colorado. Harleys will burn Colorado gas just as well. We are still good for AZ and UT according to www.handgunlaw.us
    .springerdave.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    You are good for New Mexico, too. They changed their mind and are honoring our CPL again.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    You are good for New Mexico, too. They changed their mind and are honoring our CPL again.
    Unless they change their minds again.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    Unless they change their minds again.
    Their website says they still honor MI's CPL.

    http://www.dps.nm.org/index.php/nm-c...ty-agreements/
    As we continue our audit and make changes accordingly, this page will be updated to reflect the most current information. This information is current as of May 1, 2012
    New Mexico currently recognizes concealed carry permits from or has reciprocal agreements with the following states: Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  18. #18
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springerdave View Post
    Planned to leave next week with an other rider for the four corners. Was going CC most of the way and travel through NM but I'll suggest that we travel through Colorado. Harleys will burn Colorado gas just as well. We are still good for AZ and UT according to www.handgunlaw.us
    .springerdave.
    Just don't go through Nebraska with a busted EGR valve like I did recently. They think 88 octane is "premium".

    AZ has constitutional carry. No worries there, aside from make sure you keep it concealed if you're in a restaurant that serves alcohol, and watch out for reservation land.
    Think Free or Serve. Live Free or Die.

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Just don't go through Nebraska with a busted EGR valve like I did recently. They think 88 octane is "premium".

    AZ has constitutional carry. No worries there, aside from make sure you keep it concealed if you're in a restaurant that serves alcohol, and watch out for reservation land.


    Never made it to the Four Corners, Spent more time in the south and made it to Paris Texas before turning north through OK then AR and then home. Good times, good roads, good company. Next time- MORE time(had to get back so as not to miss out on the arrival of 2nd grandbaby)(still waiting) and just reminding myself that it is the journey not the destination that counts most.springerdave

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Can you imagine being there on vacation and being cited for CC w/out a permit? Depending on what day and time you are stopped, you could either be legal or illegal. What a bunch of @$$&*!#$
    This makes my life easier since I commute to work from Texas to New Mexico.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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