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Thread: This is why you don't break into a soldiers house on some bogus charges...

  1. #76
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Good. Ignore the issues; it befits your lack of intellect. Run away and hide, jackboot.
    It appears the issue is you're inventing quotes, and your inability to not refer to individuals as "idiot," and..."jackboot."

    You are making a critical point, and it has nothing to do with the constructive subject matter of your posts.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 05-15-2012 at 02:00 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  2. #77
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    You have done "what" job? Were a cop? Ran speed traps and ate a lot of doughnuts? A lot of us here, myself included, have fought for our country in 'combat,' not just claim to have 'done the job.' We swore an oath, that doesn't expire, to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Murdering, jackbooted swat clowns are the enemy. We have 'earned' the right to criticize far more strongly than you have earned any right to be an apologist for those enemies.
    Bite me, G! Apparently you never did the job, and know nothing about it. Yes, I was a deputy sheriff in Davis County UT, many years ago. Thank you for your service to our country, even though you assume that in my 20 years of military service I never saw combat, which makes you... wrong again. Surely you must be tiring of guessing about other people's patriotism, but you never seem to tire of name-calling of those who do not share your precise world view. (I understand that it's undoubtedly dark and smelly where you have your head, but that's not an acceptable excuse for assumption, after disparaging remark, after assumption, etc.) I have taken that same oath three times in my life, even though it never expires. I see you're still painting with that overly-broad brush.

    To quote Robert Burns (not to be confused with Mr. Burns of The Simpsons - which is probably the only Burns you're familiar with):
    In proving foresight may be vain:
    The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
    Gang aft a-gley, (often go awry/wrong)
    An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
    For promised joy.
    Working as a part of the DCSO was an "experience". In my three years there I knew most of the LEOs in two counties, and I never had occasion to question the honesty or integrity of any of them - not even the ones that I didn't particularly like on a personal level. In that time, I only had to draw my weapon one time, and never had the need to fire it except during practice and qualification. I don't recall any officer involved shootings in Davis county during those three years. I grant you that there are unquestionably some badge-heavy, intolerant, corrupt cops in every part of the country. Also, that when it becomes necessary to meet resistance with force, some LEOs do get caught up in the moment, and hold "baton practice" longer than they should - they're flawed human beings... as they were designed to be. That does not excuse their behavior, it just explains it - "heat of the moment". Punishment should follow.
    I am not "an apologist" for anybody. Apparently, I just have a better understanding of the human condition than do you. We here in Utah don't have the quantity of criminal activities that Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, Boston and New York have - not even in Salt Lake City. But, we do have the same types of crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack
    Oh, ok. So by your idiotic "logic," only former IRS agents are qualified to set tax policy...yes, that makes a lot of sense.

    Sorry, bucko, but when you were doing "the job," you were working for ME. WE THE PEOPLE get to tell you how to do the job, and when you have gone too far. That is the difference between living in a constitutional republic and living in the fascist dictatorship you fantasize about.

    P.S.: There is no draft for "the job." You took it voluntarily because you saw the salary and benefits as a good compensation for any minute risks you may have taken upon yourself (and let's not forget that police aren't even in the top-10 of occupational mortality). Don't pretend you're some kind of hero because you willingly took a government job for government (read: taxpayer) salary and benefits. If folks like you can't do "the job" while respecting the inherent rights of each and every citizen you encounter, than kindly feel free to seek alternate employment in the productive sector. Don't let the door hit you on the ass, either.
    A moron should never call anybody an "idiot", and that "logic" is not mine - it is your insecurity coming out, when you have nothing reasonable to offer in the way of a rebuttal. You have no idea how I did the job, so you can return that overly-broad brush you borrowed from Gunslinger. If name calling and assumptions are all you have to offer, perhaps you should keep them to yourself. As for your "fascist dictatorship" comment... I'm not the one trying to dictate how others should think - or what they should say - through intimidation and name-calling - that "shoe" fits you just fine though. I'm just trying explain the other side of the coin in rational terms. I don't see any claim to "being some kind of hero" in any of my posts. If you ever pull your head out, try reading them after you remove the spectacles of hatred. As in all professions, there are good and bad. You choose to dwell on the bad. That's your choice. Luckily, you're the only one that has to live with it. I left the SO after three years because I didn't like the office politics and religious cliques. Those, and the night that the Sheriff directed me to release a County Commissioner who was DUI - again - and on the verge of losing his driver's license. There is no room for political favoritism in my life, but the "good ol' boy" system is beyond my control. Tell me again, about "folks like" me. I'm no "goody two shoes" but, throughout my adult life, I have always functioned by the book, and the book never called for the abuse of citizen's rights.

    If you and your pal, MIB, don't like the way "the job" is done, I would suggest that you both sign up and do it yourself. I'm sure your area of the country would be proud to have such perfect minions of the law in their service. For the rest of us mortal humans, "perfection" is but a goal to strive toward, not a destination. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 05-15-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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  3. #78
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Good. Ignore the issues; it befits your lack of intellect. Run away and hide, jackboot.
    The main "issue" is your intolerance and inability to accept the fact that people are not perfect - except for you, of course. "Lack of intellect" is apparent in the "all ___ are" approach of your arguments, and the liberal use of derisive terms. These are the hallmarks of the intellectually disadvantaged. Pax, Bozo..
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  4. #79
    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    The main "issue" is your intolerance and inability to accept the fact that people are not perfect - except for you, of course. "Lack of intellect" is apparent in the "all ___ are" approach of your arguments, and the liberal use of derisive terms. These are the hallmarks of the intellectually disadvantaged. Pax, Bozo..
    People may not be perfect but they are innocent until proven guilty.

    No knock warrants remove the assumption of innocence.

    Many times, as in some of the cases illustrated here, they were to gather evidence! If the police need to gather evidence, they should not be able to get a warrant because they do not have enough evidence yet to even make an arrest.

    Many times warrants are issued from Confidential Informants that are usually low life criminals themselves that hope to gain from making accusations. When they are wrong, they rarely get in to trouble.

    How do they make mistakes on these warrants? I mean, if the person is that well known as a criminal than why have they not been watching his place? How do they get a warrant when they do not even know the correct address of their target?

    So, where do you draw the line for using a no knock warrant?

  5. #80
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    People may not be perfect but they are innocent until proven guilty.

    No knock warrants remove the assumption of innocence.

    Many times, as in some of the cases illustrated here, they were to gather evidence! If the police need to gather evidence, they should not be able to get a warrant because they do not have enough evidence yet to even make an arrest.

    Many times warrants are issued from Confidential Informants that are usually low life criminals themselves that hope to gain from making accusations. When they are wrong, they rarely get in to trouble.

    How do they make mistakes on these warrants? I mean, if the person is that well known as a criminal than why have they not been watching his place? How do they get a warrant when they do not even know the correct address of their target?

    So, where do you draw the line for using a no knock warrant?
    The line comes from eminent danger. If the warrant was issued properly with evidence that some one's life is in emanate danger. Example would be kidnapping victim in suspects basement is going to be killed unless the cops get in quick enough.
    Someone screaming for help no warrant needed.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 05-16-2012 at 07:52 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    External review boards for cop misconduct. get the cops out of the investigating cops business. Cops investigating themselves is clearly unethical....regardless of how 'legal' it is. I wish I could investigate myself to determine if a law was broken.

    LE, as a matter of policy, is no different than any other unionized civil service occupation other than they are far far more dangerous to the average citizen.

    What is ironic is that a great many cops believe they work to protect me, yet when they screw the pooch they immediately cite the fact that they have no duty to protect me. That they must be granted qualified immunity because "they're flawed human beings....", and were only doing the best job they could....at that particular moment, based on their 'understanding' of the law....at that time.

    Cops are no friend of the citizen, the LE profession must not allow it. 'Good cops' get run out of the profession because they wanted to hold other cops accountable.

    If any business could enter into a contract based on falsehoods, execute the contract incorrectly, and be held harmless by 'the law' when the deal goes south in a bad way, that business would fail virtually over night, and rightly so.

    But not LE, no, some nitwit(s) gets "caught up in the moment" and lives are ruined forever.

    The soldier did not start this incident, the cops did, plain and simple. It is all on the cops, every time, because they have time. But no, going all Rambo is how they roll these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    The line comes from emanate danger. If the warrant was issued properly with evidence that some one's life is in emanate danger. Example would be kidnapping victim in suspects basement is going to be killed unless the cops get in quick enough.
    Someone screaming for help no warrant needed.
    In emanate danger? What does that mean?

    em·a·nate (m-nt)
    intr. & tr.v. em·a·nat·ed, em·a·nat·ing, em·a·nates
    To come or send forth, as from a source: light that emanated from a lamp; a stove that emanated a steady heat.

    Someone "screaming for help" would mean that the scream emanated. That would be a correct use.

    Perhaps you meant "imminent" danger?

    im·mi·nent   /ˈɪmənənt/ Show Spelled[im-uh-nuhnt] Show IPA
    adjective
    1. likely to occur at any moment; impending: Her death is imminent.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-16-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  8. #83
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Gil223;1754261]Bite me, G! Apparently you never did the job, and know nothing about it. Yes, I was a deputy sheriff in Davis County UT, many years ago. Thank you for your service to our country, even though you assume that in my 20 years of military service I never saw combat, which makes you... wrong again. Surely you must be tiring of guessing about other people's patriotism, but you never seem to tire of name-calling of those who do not share your precise world view. (I understand that it's undoubtedly dark and smelly where you have your head, but that's not an acceptable excuse for assumption, after disparaging remark, after assumption, etc.) I have taken that same oath three times in my life, even though it never expires. I see you're still painting with that overly-broad brush.

    To quote Robert Burns (not to be confused with Mr. Burns of The Simpsons - which is probably the only Burns you're familiar with):....>

    If you'd like to compare combat experience with me, that would be fine. I flew F-4 Phantoms in SEA during the Vietnam war. If you want to compare familiarity with poets based upon education, I have a BA, MA and JD. As to name calling, what name did I call you? I made no assumptions, merely responding to your ongoing apologia for "all" cops, good or bad, just because they are cops. You are the one who responded with "bite me" and I have my head up my butt. Objective analysis says you may or may not have combat experience; you were a cop, evidently, and now are a cheerleader for them, right or wrong. And you are the one who used invective, not I. So what you are, in fact, res ipsa loquitur.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Yea, well, MY weiner is bigger than YOURS.

    Seriously, what's up with this ******* match? Some people need a maturity check.
    Last edited by ramkatral; 05-16-2012 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #85
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    External review boards for cop misconduct. get the cops out of the investigating cops business. Cops investigating themselves is clearly unethical....regardless of how 'legal' it is. I wish I could investigate myself to determine if a law was broken.
    Doesn't work when CRBs are effectively neutered by the limitations placed on them.

    In Seattle, the CRB suggested disciplinary actions, in about 80% of the cases, they were overridden by the chief, and either reduced the discipline, or outright ignored the findings of the CRB and no punishment was given. There were some pretty serious cases where the CRB suggested canning the officer, but the chief decided otherwise..

    Old story, but still relevant
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  11. #86
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    If you'd like to compare combat experience with me, that would be fine. I flew F-4 Phantoms in SEA during the Vietnam war.

    Since this is the Internet, we can claim we are/were anything we wish to have been/are/ever want to be. Again, I thank you for your past service, if in fact you served. I was at Pleiku AB, RVN (1970-71), and you were somewhere between 20,000 and 98,556 feet above country, while I was in-country.

    If you want to compare familiarity with poets based upon education, I have a BA, MA and JD.

    I don't recall asking for your CV, but the education you claim helps to explain your inability to accept that there are other valid opinions in this world than your own. I have all the evidence I need to accept your claim as true. I have known educated idiots in the past, and I am certain there are many that I have not met - and, hopefully - will never meet.

    As to name calling, what name did I call you?

    I suppose you think I should apologize to you for misinterpreting your admonition to "Stick with being a bootlicker for the cops", as anything other than a compliment? (That's where "Bite me" came in) The military's officer corps desires sycophants and toadies - their promotions are based upon how well they kiss up to their superiors. I'm certain you did extremely well, rank-wise. If you're expecting anybody to kowtow to you - or anybody else - as if you are some kind of superior being, you would be well-advised to look elsewhere. "Homie don't play dat!"

    I made no assumptions, merely responding to your ongoing apologia for "all" cops, good or bad, just because they are cops.

    I make it a point never to use the word "ALL" when describing living organisms, especially those organisms which may be called upon to function under extreme stress - like combat chopper pilots. If you didn't read so selectively you would see that. You may see the words "a few", "many", "most" (meaning "most of those I have met"), or "the majority" (again, "of those I have met"), but you will never find the word "all" - so don't use that word if you're going to quote me. I have said multiple times that I know there are bad cops, but in my experience they are NOT ALL BAD!

    You are the one who responded with "bite me" and I have my head up my butt. Objective analysis says you may or may not have combat experience; you were a cop, evidently, and now are a cheerleader for them, right or wrong. And you are the one who used invective, not I. So what you are, in fact, res ipsa loquitur.


    I see your head hasn't moved a micron, either. I doubt that you are capable of "objective" anything, inasmuch as you "quote" people with words they haven't said, and inject ideas and concepts they haven't expressed. You apparently just fill in the spaces with whatever suits your personal agenda. PTSD?
    Regarding your claim of innocence in the use of invective, see "bootlicker", above.
    I'm not at all impressed with your JD, as it is the degree of politicians and ambulance chasers (I tend to agree with "Dick" in Henry VI regarding lawyers). But, it does give you some fun Latin phrases to toss out at what you obviously perceive as the hoi polloi (personally, I passed on a scholarship offer from McGeorge University School of Law. It's not as prestigious as Harvard, but you get a JD there nonetheless). Individually we are only that which we are, so "res ipsa loquitur" applies equally to you. (Just because "the thing speaks for itself" doesn't necessarily make the observation correct. Try selling your "politically incorrect" res ipsa loquitur to the students at Gallaudet University)
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Phantoms don't fly at Angels 98, nor does any other fighter. This is the first time I've ever heard a purported Vietnam vet discriminate between the grunts on the ground and the warplanes that supported them "over" country. As for the rest of your reply, I'll use Plutarch: "Stulti abscondere quale cogitationis cum quantitas."
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    There is something somehow less honorable in flying fighters over country? Pilots dropping JDAM on the DSHK guns in Afghanistan that had us pinned down from across the valley with a 13.5 mm wall of death were my personal saviors and heros. I'm sure Vietnam was no different.

    In fact, I named my daughter after a female rotor bird flying, lead slinging, rocket spewing, death dealing, beautiful angel of a gunship pilot who shot her way through a whole lotta hell to scoop out and save my horribly wounded best friend. Oorah Captain.

    The day I met her afterwards on the USS Bataan was the day I rendered my truest salute. Ever.
    Last edited by ramkatral; 05-16-2012 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkatral View Post
    There is something somehow less honorable in flying fighters over country? Pilots dropping JDAM on the DSHK guns in Afghanistan that had us pinned down from across the valley with a 13.5 mm wall of death were my personal saviors and heros. I'm sure Vietnam was no different.

    In fact, I named my daughter after a female rotor bird flying, lead slinging, rocket spewing, death dealing, beautiful angel of a gunship pilot who shot her way through a whole lotta hell to scoop out and save my horribly wounded best friend. Oorah Captain.

    The day I met her afterwards on the USS Bataan was the day I rendered my truest salute. Ever.
    Thats like the two Apaches that flew over our asses in An-Nasiryah during the 507th Maintenance fuckup. I would have loved to shaken their hands, but never met em. Good story man.
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Phantoms don't fly at Angels 98, nor does any other fighter. This is the first time I've ever heard a purported Vietnam vet discriminate between the grunts on the ground and the warplanes that supported them "over" country. As for the rest of your reply, I'll use Plutarch: "Stulti abscondere quale cogitationis cum quantitas."
    An F-4 Phantom pilot would likely know the history of his aircraft... from McDonnell-Douglas, the BUILDERS of the F-4 Phantom: "On 6 December 1959, the second XF4H-1 performed a zoom climb to a world record 98,557 ft.", so that altitude was obtainable by the F-4... if one had the cojones. Discriminate? Hardly, I simply stated a fact. The job of a fighter pilot is unquestionably important - critical -when you need one, there are no substitutes. I'm surprised Plutarch could have foreseen your arrival on Earth. (Although he was many things, he was never given credit as a prophet)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    An F-4 Phantom pilot would likely know the history of his aircraft... from McDonnell-Douglas, the BUILDERS of the F-4 Phantom: "On 6 December 1959, the second XF4H-1 performed a zoom climb to a world record 98,557 ft.", so that altitude was obtainable by the F-4... if one had the cojones. Discriminate? Hardly, I simply stated a fact. The job of a fighter pilot is unquestionably important - critical -when you need one, there are no substitutes. I'm surprised Plutarch could have foreseen your arrival on Earth. (Although he was many things, he was never given credit as a prophet)
    Was it not Chuck Yeager though that pulled off that stunt?

    The F-4 "Flying Brick" if 2 equally skilled pilots went up for a dogfight and one was in the F-4 and the other the MIG of the day the MIG pilot had a better chance of winning.
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    Do not underestimate MIGs. MIG 29 "Fulcrum". That thing was a helluva aircraft in its day, and is still a very potent fighter, as long as its not one of the ones crashing from lack of maintenance lol.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Was it not Chuck Yeager though that pulled off that stunt?

    The F-4 "Flying Brick" if 2 equally skilled pilots went up for a dogfight and one was in the F-4 and the other the MIG of the day the MIG pilot had a better chance of winning.
    I believe you are correct on both counts. Pax...
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Was it not Chuck Yeager though that pulled off that stunt?

    The F-4 "Flying Brick" if 2 equally skilled pilots went up for a dogfight and one was in the F-4 and the other the MIG of the day the MIG pilot had a better chance of winning.
    An experimental plane such as the one noted bears little to no resemblance to an operational fighter. The combat ceiling for the F-4, all models, is Angels 60, although it doesn't fly well at that height. Mig-21s, the Phantom antagonist in VN, operated under positive ground control only. They never left NVN. Phantoms fought over enemy territory in the most hostile anti-aircraft environment to this day. The F-4 was faster, better armed and had the benefit of two guys in the cockpit. In a neutral environment, i.e., out over the ocean, the Phantom would win every time. Migs back then were not made to fight away from home. Out numbered and facing vectored from below bogies, AAA and SAMs, we still had a very positive kill ratio against Migs during the war. I never flew over Hanoi, just in Cambodia as I have noted in the past. The guys who did paid a heavy price. The POWS were, almost 100%, aviators. I also found the guys we supported on the ground were quick to buy us a beer when we met up.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 05-17-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkatral View Post
    There is something somehow less honorable in flying fighters over country? Pilots dropping JDAM on the DSHK guns in Afghanistan that had us pinned down from across the valley with a 13.5 mm wall of death were my personal saviors and heros. I'm sure Vietnam was no different.

    In fact, I named my daughter after a female rotor bird flying, lead slinging, rocket spewing, death dealing, beautiful angel of a gunship pilot who shot her way through a whole lotta hell to scoop out and save my horribly wounded best friend. Oorah Captain.

    The day I met her afterwards on the USS Bataan was the day I rendered my truest salute. Ever.
    Thank you-- and of course Slow, for your service. The Rotorheads I've had the pleasure to know are among the bravest men--and women, on the battlefield. That hasn't changed since SEA.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkatral View Post
    Do not underestimate MIGs. MIG 29 "Fulcrum". That thing was a helluva aircraft in its day, and is still a very potent fighter, as long as its not one of the ones crashing from lack of maintenance lol.
    Sukhois are not exactly chopped liver either. The SU-31 is a great aerobatic plane and their fighters are excellent.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    For the Double Ugly it was 2.5 to 1, I think, US to NVAF.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  23. #98
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For the Double Ugly it was 2.5 to 1, I think, US to NVAF.
    http://migluver.blogspot.com/2009/04...ainst-mig.html


    Pretty good writeup for those who are interested. The guys I knew who engaged in ACM in RP6 generally agreed the Mig-17 was a most formidable opponent, even though technically outdated. Also see Operation Bolo for 21 v F-4 results. Very informative. Robin Olds was the leader and he has quite a history. RIP.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  24. #99
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    My Dad, RIP, was in OP-2Es with VO-67, then went to P-3s over the Gulf after VO-67. Brown Shoe Navy, he was through and through. He was not happy that I went to Fast Boats (subs) instead of Naval Aviation. Didn't speak to me for over a year after I joined.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

  25. #100
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    My Dad, RIP, was in OP-2Es with VO-67, then went to P-3s over the Gulf after VO-67. Brown Shoe Navy, he was through and through. He was not happy that I went to Fast Boats (subs) instead of Naval Aviation. Didn't speak to me for over a year after I joined.
    Bubbleheads...I liked having a window (windscreen) to look out of...:> Lots of friends on Attack boats, couple on Boomers.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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