• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

This is why you don't break into a soldiers house on some bogus charges...

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
The main "issue" is your intolerance and inability to accept the fact that people are not perfect - except for you, of course. "Lack of intellect" is apparent in the "all ___ are" approach of your arguments, and the liberal use of derisive terms. These are the hallmarks of the intellectually disadvantaged. Pax, Bozo..

People may not be perfect but they are innocent until proven guilty.

No knock warrants remove the assumption of innocence.

Many times, as in some of the cases illustrated here, they were to gather evidence! If the police need to gather evidence, they should not be able to get a warrant because they do not have enough evidence yet to even make an arrest.

Many times warrants are issued from Confidential Informants that are usually low life criminals themselves that hope to gain from making accusations. When they are wrong, they rarely get in to trouble.

How do they make mistakes on these warrants? I mean, if the person is that well known as a criminal than why have they not been watching his place? How do they get a warrant when they do not even know the correct address of their target?

So, where do you draw the line for using a no knock warrant?
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
People may not be perfect but they are innocent until proven guilty.

No knock warrants remove the assumption of innocence.

Many times, as in some of the cases illustrated here, they were to gather evidence! If the police need to gather evidence, they should not be able to get a warrant because they do not have enough evidence yet to even make an arrest.

Many times warrants are issued from Confidential Informants that are usually low life criminals themselves that hope to gain from making accusations. When they are wrong, they rarely get in to trouble.

How do they make mistakes on these warrants? I mean, if the person is that well known as a criminal than why have they not been watching his place? How do they get a warrant when they do not even know the correct address of their target?

So, where do you draw the line for using a no knock warrant?

The line comes from eminent danger. If the warrant was issued properly with evidence that some one's life is in emanate danger. Example would be kidnapping victim in suspects basement is going to be killed unless the cops get in quick enough.
Someone screaming for help no warrant needed.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
External review boards for cop misconduct. get the cops out of the investigating cops business. Cops investigating themselves is clearly unethical....regardless of how 'legal' it is. I wish I could investigate myself to determine if a law was broken.

LE, as a matter of policy, is no different than any other unionized civil service occupation other than they are far far more dangerous to the average citizen.

What is ironic is that a great many cops believe they work to protect me, yet when they screw the pooch they immediately cite the fact that they have no duty to protect me. That they must be granted qualified immunity because "they're flawed human beings....", and were only doing the best job they could....at that particular moment, based on their 'understanding' of the law....at that time.

Cops are no friend of the citizen, the LE profession must not allow it. 'Good cops' get run out of the profession because they wanted to hold other cops accountable.

If any business could enter into a contract based on falsehoods, execute the contract incorrectly, and be held harmless by 'the law' when the deal goes south in a bad way, that business would fail virtually over night, and rightly so.

But not LE, no, some nitwit(s) gets "caught up in the moment" and lives are ruined forever.

The soldier did not start this incident, the cops did, plain and simple. It is all on the cops, every time, because they have time. But no, going all Rambo is how they roll these days.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
The line comes from emanate danger. If the warrant was issued properly with evidence that some one's life is in emanate danger. Example would be kidnapping victim in suspects basement is going to be killed unless the cops get in quick enough.
Someone screaming for help no warrant needed.

In emanate danger? What does that mean?

em·a·nate (m-nt)
intr. & tr.v. em·a·nat·ed, em·a·nat·ing, em·a·nates
To come or send forth, as from a source: light that emanated from a lamp; a stove that emanated a steady heat.

Someone "screaming for help" would mean that the scream emanated. That would be a correct use.

Perhaps you meant "imminent" danger?

im·mi·nent   /ˈɪmənənt/ Show Spelled[im-uh-nuhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1. likely to occur at any moment; impending: Her death is imminent.
 
Last edited:

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Bite me, G! Apparently you never did the job, and know nothing about it. Yes, I was a deputy sheriff in Davis County UT, many years ago. Thank you for your service to our country, even though you assume that in my 20 years of military service I never saw combat, which makes you... wrong again. Surely you must be tiring of guessing about other people's patriotism, but you never seem to tire of name-calling of those who do not share your precise world view. (I understand that it's undoubtedly dark and smelly where you have your head, but that's not an acceptable excuse for assumption, after disparaging remark, after assumption, etc.) I have taken that same oath three times in my life, even though it never expires. I see you're still painting with that overly-broad brush.

To quote Robert Burns (not to be confused with Mr. Burns of The Simpsons - which is probably the only Burns you're familiar with):....>

If you'd like to compare combat experience with me, that would be fine. I flew F-4 Phantoms in SEA during the Vietnam war. If you want to compare familiarity with poets based upon education, I have a BA, MA and JD. As to name calling, what name did I call you? I made no assumptions, merely responding to your ongoing apologia for "all" cops, good or bad, just because they are cops. You are the one who responded with "bite me" and I have my head up my butt. Objective analysis says you may or may not have combat experience; you were a cop, evidently, and now are a cheerleader for them, right or wrong. And you are the one who used invective, not I. So what you are, in fact, res ipsa loquitur.
 

ramkatral

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
60
Location
Tryon, NC
Yea, well, MY weiner is bigger than YOURS.

Seriously, what's up with this ******* match? Some people need a maturity check.
 
Last edited:

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
External review boards for cop misconduct. get the cops out of the investigating cops business. Cops investigating themselves is clearly unethical....regardless of how 'legal' it is. I wish I could investigate myself to determine if a law was broken.

Doesn't work when CRBs are effectively neutered by the limitations placed on them.

In Seattle, the CRB suggested disciplinary actions, in about 80% of the cases, they were overridden by the chief, and either reduced the discipline, or outright ignored the findings of the CRB and no punishment was given. There were some pretty serious cases where the CRB suggested canning the officer, but the chief decided otherwise..

Old story, but still relevant
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
If you'd like to compare combat experience with me, that would be fine. I flew F-4 Phantoms in SEA during the Vietnam war.

Since this is the Internet, we can claim we are/were anything we wish to have been/are/ever want to be. Again, I thank you for your past service, if in fact you served. I was at Pleiku AB, RVN (1970-71), and you were somewhere between 20,000 and 98,556 feet above country, while I was in-country.

If you want to compare familiarity with poets based upon education, I have a BA, MA and JD.

I don't recall asking for your CV, but the education you claim helps to explain your inability to accept that there are other valid opinions in this world than your own. I have all the evidence I need to accept your claim as true. I have known educated idiots in the past, and I am certain there are many that I have not met - and, hopefully - will never meet.

As to name calling, what name did I call you?

I suppose you think I should apologize to you for misinterpreting your admonition to "Stick with being a bootlicker for the cops", as anything other than a compliment? (That's where "Bite me" came in) The military's officer corps desires sycophants and toadies - their promotions are based upon how well they kiss up to their superiors. I'm certain you did extremely well, rank-wise. If you're expecting anybody to kowtow to you - or anybody else - as if you are some kind of superior being, you would be well-advised to look elsewhere. "Homie don't play dat!"

I made no assumptions, merely responding to your ongoing apologia for "all" cops, good or bad, just because they are cops.

I make it a point never to use the word "ALL" when describing living organisms, especially those organisms which may be called upon to function under extreme stress - like combat chopper pilots. If you didn't read so selectively you would see that. You may see the words "a few", "many", "most" (meaning "most of those I have met"), or "the majority" (again, "of those I have met"), but you will never find the word "all" - so don't use that word if you're going to quote me. I have said multiple times that I know there are bad cops, but in my experience they are NOT ALL BAD!

You are the one who responded with "bite me" and I have my head up my butt. Objective analysis says you may or may not have combat experience; you were a cop, evidently, and now are a cheerleader for them, right or wrong. And you are the one who used invective, not I. So what you are, in fact, res ipsa loquitur.


I see your head hasn't moved a micron, either. I doubt that you are capable of "objective" anything, inasmuch as you "quote" people with words they haven't said, and inject ideas and concepts they haven't expressed. You apparently just fill in the spaces with whatever suits your personal agenda. PTSD?
Regarding your claim of innocence in the use of invective, see "bootlicker", above.
I'm not at all impressed with your JD, as it is the degree of politicians and ambulance chasers (I tend to agree with "Dick" in Henry VI regarding lawyers). But, it does give you some fun Latin phrases to toss out at what you obviously perceive as the hoi polloi (personally, I passed on a scholarship offer from McGeorge University School of Law. It's not as prestigious as Harvard, but you get a JD there nonetheless). Individually we are only that which we are, so "res ipsa loquitur" applies equally to you. (Just because "the thing speaks for itself" doesn't necessarily make the observation correct. Try selling your "politically incorrect" res ipsa loquitur to the students at Gallaudet University)

:)
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA

Phantoms don't fly at Angels 98, nor does any other fighter. This is the first time I've ever heard a purported Vietnam vet discriminate between the grunts on the ground and the warplanes that supported them "over" country. As for the rest of your reply, I'll use Plutarch: "Stulti abscondere quale cogitationis cum quantitas."
 

ramkatral

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
60
Location
Tryon, NC
There is something somehow less honorable in flying fighters over country? Pilots dropping JDAM on the DSHK guns in Afghanistan that had us pinned down from across the valley with a 13.5 mm wall of death were my personal saviors and heros. I'm sure Vietnam was no different.

In fact, I named my daughter after a female rotor bird flying, lead slinging, rocket spewing, death dealing, beautiful angel of a gunship pilot who shot her way through a whole lotta hell to scoop out and save my horribly wounded best friend. Oorah Captain.

The day I met her afterwards on the USS Bataan was the day I rendered my truest salute. Ever.
 
Last edited:

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
There is something somehow less honorable in flying fighters over country? Pilots dropping JDAM on the DSHK guns in Afghanistan that had us pinned down from across the valley with a 13.5 mm wall of death were my personal saviors and heros. I'm sure Vietnam was no different.

In fact, I named my daughter after a female rotor bird flying, lead slinging, rocket spewing, death dealing, beautiful angel of a gunship pilot who shot her way through a whole lotta hell to scoop out and save my horribly wounded best friend. Oorah Captain.

The day I met her afterwards on the USS Bataan was the day I rendered my truest salute. Ever.

Thats like the two Apaches that flew over our asses in An-Nasiryah during the 507th Maintenance fuckup. I would have loved to shaken their hands, but never met em. Good story man.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
Phantoms don't fly at Angels 98, nor does any other fighter. This is the first time I've ever heard a purported Vietnam vet discriminate between the grunts on the ground and the warplanes that supported them "over" country. As for the rest of your reply, I'll use Plutarch: "Stulti abscondere quale cogitationis cum quantitas."

An F-4 Phantom pilot would likely know the history of his aircraft... from McDonnell-Douglas, the BUILDERS of the F-4 Phantom: "On 6 December 1959, the second XF4H-1 performed a zoom climb to a world record 98,557 ft.", so that altitude was obtainable by the F-4... if one had the cojones. Discriminate? Hardly, I simply stated a fact. The job of a fighter pilot is unquestionably important - critical -when you need one, there are no substitutes. I'm surprised Plutarch could have foreseen your arrival on Earth. (Although he was many things, he was never given credit as a prophet)
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
An F-4 Phantom pilot would likely know the history of his aircraft... from McDonnell-Douglas, the BUILDERS of the F-4 Phantom: "On 6 December 1959, the second XF4H-1 performed a zoom climb to a world record 98,557 ft.", so that altitude was obtainable by the F-4... if one had the cojones. Discriminate? Hardly, I simply stated a fact. The job of a fighter pilot is unquestionably important - critical -when you need one, there are no substitutes. I'm surprised Plutarch could have foreseen your arrival on Earth. (Although he was many things, he was never given credit as a prophet)

Was it not Chuck Yeager though that pulled off that stunt?

The F-4 "Flying Brick" if 2 equally skilled pilots went up for a dogfight and one was in the F-4 and the other the MIG of the day the MIG pilot had a better chance of winning.
 

ramkatral

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
60
Location
Tryon, NC
Do not underestimate MIGs. MIG 29 "Fulcrum". That thing was a helluva aircraft in its day, and is still a very potent fighter, as long as its not one of the ones crashing from lack of maintenance lol.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
Was it not Chuck Yeager though that pulled off that stunt?

The F-4 "Flying Brick" if 2 equally skilled pilots went up for a dogfight and one was in the F-4 and the other the MIG of the day the MIG pilot had a better chance of winning.

I believe you are correct on both counts. Pax...
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Was it not Chuck Yeager though that pulled off that stunt?

The F-4 "Flying Brick" if 2 equally skilled pilots went up for a dogfight and one was in the F-4 and the other the MIG of the day the MIG pilot had a better chance of winning.

An experimental plane such as the one noted bears little to no resemblance to an operational fighter. The combat ceiling for the F-4, all models, is Angels 60, although it doesn't fly well at that height. Mig-21s, the Phantom antagonist in VN, operated under positive ground control only. They never left NVN. Phantoms fought over enemy territory in the most hostile anti-aircraft environment to this day. The F-4 was faster, better armed and had the benefit of two guys in the cockpit. In a neutral environment, i.e., out over the ocean, the Phantom would win every time. Migs back then were not made to fight away from home. Out numbered and facing vectored from below bogies, AAA and SAMs, we still had a very positive kill ratio against Migs during the war. I never flew over Hanoi, just in Cambodia as I have noted in the past. The guys who did paid a heavy price. The POWS were, almost 100%, aviators. I also found the guys we supported on the ground were quick to buy us a beer when we met up.
 
Last edited:

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
There is something somehow less honorable in flying fighters over country? Pilots dropping JDAM on the DSHK guns in Afghanistan that had us pinned down from across the valley with a 13.5 mm wall of death were my personal saviors and heros. I'm sure Vietnam was no different.

In fact, I named my daughter after a female rotor bird flying, lead slinging, rocket spewing, death dealing, beautiful angel of a gunship pilot who shot her way through a whole lotta hell to scoop out and save my horribly wounded best friend. Oorah Captain.

The day I met her afterwards on the USS Bataan was the day I rendered my truest salute. Ever.

Thank you-- and of course Slow, for your service. The Rotorheads I've had the pleasure to know are among the bravest men--and women, on the battlefield. That hasn't changed since SEA.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Do not underestimate MIGs. MIG 29 "Fulcrum". That thing was a helluva aircraft in its day, and is still a very potent fighter, as long as its not one of the ones crashing from lack of maintenance lol.

Sukhois are not exactly chopped liver either. The SU-31 is a great aerobatic plane and their fighters are excellent.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Top