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This is why you don't break into a soldiers house on some bogus charges...

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
These are prime examples of our overly militarized police forces running rough shod over citizens rights.

No knock warrants with door busting should be reserved for ONLY for people that are known to be violent or thought to be holding hostages.

The warrant in the story was to search for evidence. This means that they did not even have enough on him to charge him with a crime. So, this man was killed over a "Fishing" expedition. Very sad indeed.

We must speak out against the continuing use of No Knock Warrants.

Most people that are law abiding and even the ones that may smoke a little weed do not think that the police are going to crash their door in. They think that the police have bigger fish to fry. So, when the police do come busting in, they think they are the victims of a home invasion.

Unfortunately, with many states confiscation laws, police agencies use small amounts of weed to justify taking everything a person owns including their cars and house. They then sell this and buy even better Toys to conduct their next raid with. The police should not be able to base their raids on financial gain.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Unfortunately, LEO's are human beings,.

LEO's do not have to follow orders. They are not military officers that can get imprisoned for not following orders. LEO's want to play soldier? Then there will be deaths of LEOs.

All of these officers would have been dead in my house; I have a 50 cal. AR rifle with 50 rd mag. next to my bed (let all you guys with 9mm pistols take on a swat team or group of criminals with it, not me!) I know where the entry way is and stairs ... I would not even have to see them .. the 50 cal rounds will go through the drywall no problem.... and with 50 rounds? Can't miss.

I'm getting a .338 mag AR30 rifle next .. sweet!

LEOs should start understanding that people will defend their home from these nazi getto tactics....middle of night, no knock raids? How is anyone supposed to know that they are the police? Al Capone had his guys pose as cops ....

The state should not have civilians (ie cops) doing jobs the military does ... because guess what? There are millions of vets who know more about killing people than there are cops that do.
 

newbie

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
148
Location
west bend
No knock warrents are dumb and not only would I have to worry about some thug braking in, I have to worry that I might kill a cop. What has this world come to. I hope it gets better for when my children grow up in it. one can only pray that theres going to be a change. If it stays on this path I have no faith in this country. The storys I hear everyday, the crime in my own small town. Then other day I heard of this couple killing there 3year old kid. Im not liking them path we are on.
 

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
I called it, I knew one of these times a no knock warrant was going to get a lot innocent percent people hurt for the simple excuse of "safety". If the cops want to play "commando" they should probably make sure the door they are kicking in for a BS warrant is not the home of a person trained by the best people in the world in urban combat. They might want to give the real soldiers / and tax payers they chose to go after a little more damn respect and knock on the damn door. You wont see me shed a tear for those that go against our God Given rights.
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Unfortunately, LEO's are human beings, and as such are subject to all the emotions the rest of we mortals must deal with - each in our own unique way - and we must resolve those emotions in our own time, whatever that may be. Inasmuch as we "civilians" are not generally under significant duress, we can take whatever time we need to work through our problems. LEO's frequently must make decisions in milliseconds that will determine who walks away from an armed confrontation, and who leaves in a body bag. Would you prefer that some "mad scientist" create genetically modified humans specifically designed to function as LEO's... and present us with something simlilar to Robocop? I seriously doubt you would. The ability to make split-second decisions to engage or not engage, deploy the appropriate weapon, and neutralize (or not) the perceived threat based upon pure logic - without an ort of human compassion - would have the libtards rioting in the streets! When you are wearing a uniform - police or military - and sent out to do a job that may require the use of deadly force, most people will find themselves in "survival mode". This is not an excuse for (what we may see as) poor judgment calls, but rather an explanation of the human condition. I would imagine that Todd Blair was in that mode "survival mode" when he was awakened from his sleep by the sound of his door being breached, and several people shouting loudly (I undoubtedly would be). At that time we function not so much on rational thought (we hear words, but they may be indistinguishable in our not-quite-awake condition), instead we instinctively go into survival mode. The police should know and understand this, and be prepared to use the minimum force necessary to control and subdue the subject. If Blair had exited his bedroom with a shotgun, rifle, or handgun he should have been the "second place winner" in the ensuing confrontation. The police were also in "survival mode", but fully awake, alert and acutely aware of the possibility of a confrontation since they had not been invited into the home by the occupant. However, Blair was at a severe disadvantage. Would I have reacted in the same manner as Blair? No. I would have grabbed my Glock from the night table and taken the best available cover in my bedroom, been at the ready (whatever "ready" I was capable of arousing), tried to compose my senses, and waited for an entry. What happened next would have been dependent upon the type of entry.

The JNTF was dispatched to Blair's residence to do their job. I do not have access to how they were instructed to actually execute their warrant, so I cannot comment further on that aspect. Was the phrase, "...consider the subject to be armed and dangerous..." used in any part of their briefing? I have no way of knowing. Do I think it was a "clean shoot"? Based only upon what was reported - and the video - I think it was an unnecessary shooting. If I were on a shooting review board, I would not hold the officer blameless... but, I wouldn't recommend he be charged with homicide either. Did the LEO demonstrate bad judgment? Yes, but bad judgement is not a criminal offense. Inappropriate use of deadly force? Probably, but mitigated by what the officer perceived as a potentially deadly threat. I believe that an individual's perception of a situation is the "truth of the matter" for that individual, especially when his/her survival may depend upon a dissected second. Blair believed he was under attack. The police believed his response to their entry to be a threat. Criminal intent by either party? No. A tragically avoidable ending? Definitely... any non-involved Monday Morning Quarterback can see that. Pax...
Interesting proposition. Is it possible that the cop lied? Is that even relevant.

Yes, bad judgement is a criminal offense....if you are a citizen. If you are a cop, it is a teachable moment.

We citizens do not get to decide what is a clean shoot or not....unless it gets to we citizens serving on a jury.

....good luck with that.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I called the DA's office up ... they said that they will not drop the charges ... but I am only 1 .. if they get thousands of calls then I think they would drop the murder charges. Otherwise, I see another OK city bombing possibly occurring.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
Interesting proposition. Is it possible that the cop lied? Is that even relevant.

Yes, bad judgement is a criminal offense....if you are a citizen. If you are a cop, it is a teachable moment.

We citizens do not get to decide what is a clean shoot or not....unless it gets to we citizens serving on a jury.

....good luck with that.

I accept your opinions as precisely what they are - your opinions. Is it possible that the cop lied? Anything that one doesn't witness personally is usually "possible", but, in this case it is not probable. And no, it isn't relevant in this case. The video clearly shows Blair exiting his bedroom (?) holding a thin, silvery object in a batting stance - a menacing manner. Pax...
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Two out of my three are fact. The first is opinion....more like a observation based on past factual incidents of cops getting no-knock warrants based on 'false pretenses'.

The next two are factual.

Poor judgement is a criminal offense, for citizens, until the state or jury decides otherwise. Poor judgement for cops is a teachable moment and we must look no farther than the two examples cited in this very thread.

No, your hesitance is understandable precisely because we were not there. Then again, only LE has access to the evidence and controls the release of evidence. Essentially, LE controls the facts. It is fact that LE will manipulate evidence, fabricate evidence and withhold evidence to their own ends.

It is obvious that the citizen does not get to choose the teachable moment route over the criminal investigation route.

Common sense dictates the LE refrain from using these no-know home invasions precisely because they place all at unwarranted risk. The problem is that LE has little to no common sense.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
Two out of my three are fact. The first is opinion....more like a observation based on past factual incidents of cops getting no-knock warrants based on 'false pretenses'.

The next two are factual.

Poor judgement is a criminal offense, for citizens, until the state or jury decides otherwise. Poor judgement for cops is a teachable moment and we must look no farther than the two examples cited in this very thread.

If poor judgment were a "criminal offense" there would be no housing shortage because 75% of the population would be in one of the hundred-or-so prisons we would have to construct in each state. The unwarranted, unjustifiable taking of a human life is a criminal offense. Eating three meals a day a Mickey D's is poor judgment, but it is not a criminal offense. Filling the tank of your Cadillac - which requires premium fuel - with regular fuel because it is cheaper, is poor judgment... but it is not a criminal offense. Poor judgment alone is not a criminal offense, it is the result of poor personal judgment that may be a criminal offense.

It is fact that LE will manipulate evidence, fabricate evidence and withhold evidence to their own ends.

You paint with an extremely broad brush. When your argument includes ALL of any living organism it is fallacious from the outset. Granted LEOs are not all angels, and there are some who will take the easy way out. In my experience, there are however, many more individual LEOs with personal integrity than without. But, if the department leadership is corrupt, the corruption flows downstream.

It is obvious that the citizen does not get to choose the teachable moment route over the criminal investigation route.

Common sense dictates the LE refrain from using these no-know home invasions precisely because they place all at unwarranted risk. The problem is that LE has little to no common sense.

Blame the entire system then, not just the executioner (no pun intended) of the order. A warrant request of any kind must be scrutinized by a judge, satisfy that judge that there is sufficient cause to issue the warrant, and signed by said judge before it is valid and executable. A significant part of a LEO's job is to execute warrants. And "common sense" is much less common than it should be. Pax...
 
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Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Blame the entire system then, not just the executioner (no pun intended) of the order. A warrant request of any kind must be scrutinized by a judge, satisfy that judge that there is sufficient cause to issue the warrant, and signed by said judge before it is valid and executable. A significant part of a LEO's job is to execute warrants. And "common sense" is much less common than it should be. Pax...

So blame the judges then.
I think that for every warrant that causes death or injury and is executed with undue force that the judge issuing it should be punished first. That way they stop issuing warrants without looking into the details first.

Just a thought.
 

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
So blame the judges then.
I think that for every warrant that causes death or injury and is executed with undue force that the judge issuing it should be punished first. That way they stop issuing warrants without looking into the details first.

Just a thought.

THIS 100% and charge the officers responsible for screwed up address to begin with.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
This is why no-knock warrants are un-Constitituional

The problem I have with no-knock warrants is they set honest, law-abiding home-defenders up for failure: How are we supposed to tell the difference between a group of gang-bangers and a group of cops if they simply bust down the door and throw in a flash-bang (which can be indistinguishable from a shotgun blast, particularly in a darkened, previously-quiet room).

If cops want to serve me a warrant, please knock -- I DO NOT want to inadvertently shoot you! If you do not knock and failure to properly announce yourself, you render me incapable of discerning whether you're law-enforcement or law-breakers. I have a son! I cannot "assume the best" when gangs have broken into homes around here and just shot people. If I have any doubts, I WILL shoot. That's not bad on me for defending my home. That's bad on law enforcement for being STUPID about executing no-knock warrants.

Don't be stupid. Please knock. Thanks!
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Blame the entire system then, not just the executioner (no pun intended) of the order. A warrant request of any kind must be scrutinized by a judge, satisfy that judge that there is sufficient cause to issue the warrant, and signed by said judge before it is valid and executable. A significant part of a LEO's job is to execute warrants. And "common sense" is much less common than it should be. Pax...

I do blame the whole system, statist judges who are supposed to be a check on tyranny have become part of the system. They work hand in hand with prosecutors and police to over ride our liberties, they love case law over constitutional law.

But remember following orders is no excuse for committing crimes against human fundamental rights.
 

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
The problem I have with no-knock warrants is they set honest, law-abiding home-defenders up for failure: How are we supposed to tell the difference between a group of gang-bangers and a group of cops if they simply bust down the door and throw in a flash-bang (which can be indistinguishable from a shotgun blast, particularly in a darkened, previously-quiet room).

If cops want to serve me a warrant, please knock -- I DO NOT want to inadvertently shoot you! If you do not knock and failure to properly announce yourself, you render me incapable of discerning whether you're law-enforcement or law-breakers. I have a son! I cannot "assume the best" when gangs have broken into homes around here and just shot people. If I have any doubts, I WILL shoot. That's not bad on me for defending my home. That's bad on law enforcement for being STUPID about executing no-knock warrants.

Don't be stupid. Please knock. Thanks!

So putting that on a t-shirt


or this

Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.
 
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matt2636

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
201
Location
cedar rapids
i guess i dont really understand these no knock warrents. if a situation is bad enough where you have a no knock warrent why not do it in the day time? for one reason saftey. where are most people at during the day time? work. where are most kids? school. so now your probablility of a stray bullet killing someone else goes way down. now if they have this search warrent you would think they would know a lot about the suspect right? things like if he has a job. why not get the warret arrest him at work (if he/she works) where hes less likely armed and to cause trouble and then search his house? i understand thats not always a option but being a vet and ptsd or no ptsd im thinking someone is breaking into my house. not only that believe it or not criminals are getting smarter and breaking into houses useing such sayings as "police search warrent" i think they even have t-shirts that say police on them. i dont know maybe im thinking to far into this but from a public saftey and tactical stand point it doesnt make sence to me. i want bad guys cought just as bad as anyone else does but not at the saftey of me or the public. yes in the marines we practiced night raids and did lots of night operations in afghan. but thats the military we kill the enemy "locate close with and destroy" is part of the job discription of the 03 mos. we dont do search warrents.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Blame the entire system then, not just the executioner (no pun intended) of the order. A warrant request of any kind must be scrutinized by a judge, satisfy that judge that there is sufficient cause to issue the warrant, and signed by said judge before it is valid and executable. A significant part of a LEO's job is to execute warrants. And "common sense" is much less common than it should be. Pax...
LE does fabricate evidence, daily, some jurisdictions more so than others. Judges are willing participants. DA'/PAs hands are just as dirty.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Unfortunately, LEO's are human beings, and as such are subject to all the emotions the rest of we mortals must deal with - each in our own unique way - and we must resolve those emotions in our own time, whatever that may be. Inasmuch as we "civilians" are not generally under significant duress, we can take whatever time we need to work through our problems. LEO's frequently must make decisions in milliseconds that will determine who walks away from an armed confrontation, and who leaves in a body bag. Would you prefer that some "mad scientist" create genetically modified humans specifically designed to function as LEO's... and present us with something simlilar to Robocop? I seriously doubt you would. The ability to make split-second decisions to engage or not engage, deploy the appropriate weapon, and neutralize (or not) the perceived threat based upon pure logic - without an ort of human compassion - would have the libtards rioting in the streets! When you are wearing a uniform - police or military - and sent out to do a job that may require the use of deadly force, most people will find themselves in "survival mode". This is not an excuse for (what we may see as) poor judgment calls, but rather an explanation of the human condition. I would imagine that Todd Blair was in that mode "survival mode" when he was awakened from his sleep by the sound of his door being breached, and several people shouting loudly (I undoubtedly would be). At that time we function not so much on rational thought (we hear words, but they may be indistinguishable in our not-quite-awake condition), instead we instinctively go into survival mode. The police should know and understand this, and be prepared to use the minimum force necessary to control and subdue the subject. If Blair had exited his bedroom with a shotgun, rifle, or handgun he should have been the "second place winner" in the ensuing confrontation. The police were also in "survival mode", but fully awake, alert and acutely aware of the possibility of a confrontation since they had not been invited into the home by the occupant. However, Blair was at a severe disadvantage. Would I have reacted in the same manner as Blair? No. I would have grabbed my Glock from the night table and taken the best available cover in my bedroom, been at the ready (whatever "ready" I was capable of arousing), tried to compose my senses, and waited for an entry. What happened next would have been dependent upon the type of entry.

The JNTF was dispatched to Blair's residence to do their job. I do not have access to how they were instructed to actually execute their warrant, so I cannot comment further on that aspect. Was the phrase, "...consider the subject to be armed and dangerous..." used in any part of their briefing? I have no way of knowing. Do I think it was a "clean shoot"? Based only upon what was reported - and the video - I think it was an unnecessary shooting. If I were on a shooting review board, I would not hold the officer blameless... but, I wouldn't recommend he be charged with homicide either. Did the LEO demonstrate bad judgment? Yes, but bad judgement is not a criminal offense. Inappropriate use of deadly force? Probably, but mitigated by what the officer perceived as a potentially deadly threat. I believe that an individual's perception of a situation is the "truth of the matter" for that individual, especially when his/her survival may depend upon a dissected second. Blair believed he was under attack. The police believed his response to their entry to be a threat. Criminal intent by either party? No. A tragically avoidable ending? Definitely... any non-involved Monday Morning Quarterback can see that. Pax...

You should have been a defense attorney at Nuremberg. The SS extermination camp guards were "just doing their jobs" too.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Here is a similar incident in Utah. Man wakes up to people breaking in (the swat team.) he gets out of bed with a golf club, and gets murdered. (WARNING GRAPHIC VIDS)

[video=youtube;WV6Bq8xeQrU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6Bq8xeQrU&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Ddrug%2Braid%2Butah%26oq%3Ddrug%2Braid%2 Butah%26aq%3Df%26aqi%3D%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyoutube. 3...2340.4542.0.5009.14.13.0.0.0.0.258.1894.0j6j4. 10.0...0.0.[/video]

Be a real shame if the Stormtrooper scum kicked in a door with an IED behind it--ball bearings and scrap metal around a shaped charge aimed below the waist. Real shame...might conclude that no knock search warrants aren't just a license for them to murder.
 
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