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Thread: Can you CC in a CFZ with owners permission?

  1. #1
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    Can you CC in a CFZ with owners permission?

    Interesting story, today I was OC in a bar/restaurant with my wife and mother to have dinner (NO drinks). I have been going to there for 20+ years. I have known the owner for over a decade (he attended my wedding last year). I have OC there quite a few times with no issues (apparently no one noticed before) when today the owners girlfriend came over when she noticed my firearm. She said "You can't have a gun in a bar. You should cover that before someone calls the cops on you." when I explained to her it was perfectly legal to OC with a CPL as long as I'm not consuming alcohol she was stunned. I showed her MSP 86 and her response was "Of all the people in here you are the least of my concerns about carrying a gun, I actually feel safer knowing you have one. But we sure the hell don't want everyone carrying one." She asked if I could cover it for the sake of not making a precedent to the other customers (mostly locals with too much alcohol and not enough common sense). When I explained the legality of that would depend on the % of gross sale of alcohol VS food. She said she believed food sales outweighed the alcohol sales but wasn't 100% sure but she would make it a point to check the books and find out for me. She asked if the owner consented to me CC while in there would that be OK with the law even if the alcohol sales were more? My response was I'll check on that one and get back to her on that.

    My question to those more knowledge then I is: If I have express consent from the bar owner to CC in his business (does it need to be written if so?) is it legal for me CC so regardless of the food/alcohol ratio? Or is consent from the owner irrelevant since I am not technically an employee? (Could I qualify as a security guard 3 times a month while taking the family out to dinner or would I have to be on payroll?) The owner is pro-gun and has no issues with me or others carrying but has a fear that some of his patrons would lack the self-control and restraint to OC responsibly so he really doesn't want them to know it's allowed by everyone. (He doesn't want to verify if they are CPL holders)

    If the food ratio outweighs the alcohol sales and OC and CC is legal he asked about the legality of a sign stating "ALL Firearms MUST be Concealed" and further inquired if food/alcohol ratio is not good then what if he gave EVERYONE permission to CC while in his business?

    Thanks for any info you can provide since this one kind stumped me, I figured with private property rights he could dictate NO OC and require CC but I wasn't sure if Private property right could allow him to override any CFZ restrictions imposed on a CPL holders ability to CC in a CFZ.

    Hevy
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Simple answer, no. If you were security or an employee (bar/tavern only) and have a CPL you may carry concealed but if not you must carry openly. Also it's not a matter of food to alcohol ratio it's a matter of what their primary source of income is. If it's primarily from alcohol (even if less than 50%) it is a concealed PFZ. Unless you're the owner or an employee you cannot carry concealed in a bar or tavern described below.


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

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  3. #3
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    Ok, you have touched on a couple issues.

    You cannot CC unless you are the owner. 28.425o

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (d)A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business.


    You can OC because of the exemption in 750.234d

    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.


    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    You cannot CC because of 28.425o

    (d)A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises.

    You could CC IF you were on the payroll, and I believe, in the course of your duties. again 425o

    (d) This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business.

    2 (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

    If the ratio of alcohol sales is not greater than all other sales, then you could CC if you wish with a CPL. The owner or representative could then grant permission to CPL holders to CC, could allow OC with CPL, or could disallow carry if he/she wished.

    Sec. 234d.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    I can't recall the cites, but OC your BAC can be .08, and CC your BAC can be .02 Max

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    750.237 Liquor or controlled substance; possession or use of firearm by person under influence; violation; penalty; chemical analysis.


    Sec. 237.

    (b) The individual has an alcohol content of 0.08 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine.

    28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

    (b) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .08 or more but less than .10 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or $100.00, or both. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol to revoke the license for not more than 3 years. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court.
    (c) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .02 or more but less than .08 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual the license to revoke the license for 1 year. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court. The court shall notify the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol if an individual is found responsible for a subsequent violation of this subdivision.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 04-30-2012 at 11:47 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    750.237 Liquor or controlled substance; possession or use of firearm by person under influence; violation; penalty; chemical analysis.


    Sec. 237.

    (b) The individual has an alcohol content of 0.08 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine.

    28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

    (b) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .08 or more but less than .10 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or $100.00, or both. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol to revoke the license for not more than 3 years. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court.
    (c) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .02 or more but less than .08 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual the license to revoke the license for 1 year. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court. The court shall notify the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol if an individual is found responsible for a subsequent violation of this subdivision.
    While the BAC for open carry is .08 you left out an important part...

    (1) An individual shall not carry, have in possession or under control, or use in any manner or discharge a firearm under any of the following
    circumstances:


    (a) The individual is under the influence of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance.

    (b) The individual has an alcohol content of 0.08 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine.

    (c) Because of the consumption of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance, the
    individual's ability to use a firearm is visibly impaired.
    Just what is considered to be "under the influence"? Since the BAC of .08 and being visibly impaired are already called out in sections (b) & (c) respectively then "under the influence" must be something else.

    Back to the OP:

    No. The only times a CPL holder may CC in a CC-PFZ with permission is if you are the employee of a bar/tavern or you have permission to carry on church property. Those are the only exceptions allowed in the law for people that don't own the business.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 05-01-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    (d)A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business.
    pri·ma·ry

    1. first or highest in rank or importance; chief; principal: his primary goals in life.

    2. first in order in any series, sequence, etc

    ma·jor·i·ty

      1. the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total ( opposed to minority): the majority of the population.



    The law states "primary" so it's looking at the largest number in a sequence not whether alcohol sales are greater than half of the total income, which would be a majority. So, alcohol 45%, food 40%, cover charge 5%, t-shirts/souvenirs 10% = no CC.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 05-01-2012 at 03:18 AM.
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  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Heavy, if they really want you to conceal, they could make you a temporary employee of the bar when you visit

    Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Thanks Bronson.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post

    Just what is considered to be "under the influence"? Since the BAC of .08 and being visibly impaired are already called out in sections (b) & (c) respectively then "under the influence" must be something else.
    You are right. .08 makes it "automatic", but you could be .01 and found to be "under the influence" -- with the right jury.

    Officer: He appeared a bit wobbly as he walked.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Heavy, if they really want you to conceal, they could make you a temporary employee of the bar when you visit

    Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2
    This is not as silly as it sounds. I think it could be arguably allowed.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    This is not as silly as it sounds. I think it could be arguably allowed.
    I haven't had a chance to stop back by and check with her yet on the actual totals for sales food/alcohol to see what the outcome will be.

    HOWEVER:

    Would a contractor serve as an employee as opposed to an payroll employee? Thereby bypassing all sorts of paperwork and IRS/Workers comp issues.

    Say a simple scope of service contract agreement,

    I (insert your name here) agree to provide security services at my own risk while on premises located at (insert address here) at a rate of $.01 (1 cent) annually. While on premises located at (insert address here) I (insert owners name here) do hereby authorize (insert your name here) to carry and conceal any and all firearms while on premises.

    Yes I realize it needs to be lawyered up, but you get the idea.
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    I haven't had a chance to stop back by and check with her yet on the actual totals for sales food/alcohol to see what the outcome will be.

    HOWEVER:

    Would a contractor serve as an employee as opposed to an payroll employee? Thereby bypassing all sorts of paperwork and IRS/Workers comp issues.

    Say a simple scope of service contract agreement,

    I (insert your name here) agree to provide security services at my own risk while on premises located at (insert address here) at a rate of $.01 (1 cent) annually. While on premises located at (insert address here) I (insert owners name here) do hereby authorize (insert your name here) to carry and conceal any and all firearms while on premises.

    Yes I realize it needs to be lawyered up, but you get the idea.
    I'd run it by an attorney... but I think it MIGHT just work.

    From the IRS: Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that you have the right to control the details of how the services are performed.
    www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179112,00.htm

    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-02-2012 at 08:34 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I'd run it by an attorney... but I think it MIGHT just work.

    From the IRS: Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that you have the right to control the details of how the services are performed.
    www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179112,00.htm

    Ok I did a slight revision of my original idea and made it a little more legalized with the little legal knowledge I have


    CONTRACT FOR SECURITY SERVICES
    No:......../

    Today, May 2nd, 2012 we are :
    PARTY A: --------------------------------------------------------------------: Representative : ------------------------------------------
    Position : ------------------------------------------
    Address : ------------------------------------------
    Tel: : ------------------------------------------
    Fax : ------------------------------------------
    Tax code : ------------------------------------------
    PARTY B: --------------------------------------------------------------------:
    Representative : ------------------------------------------
    Position : ------------------------------------------
    Address : ------------------------------------------
    Tel: : ------------------------------------------
    Fax : ------------------------------------------
    Tax code : ------------------------------------------


    After deliberating the Parties are unanimous as follows:
    ARTICLE 1. PURPOSE AND TERM OF CONTRACT
    1.1 Party A agrees to hire Party B and Party B agrees to provide Party A the security services set forth in this Contract limited to Party A's property at: -------------------------------
    Add: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Herein after called "the Site")
    1.2 The duration of the Contract shall be 12 months from today ________________ to ________________.
    ARTICLE 2: REQUESTING ABOUT QUALITY OF SERVICE
    2.1 To help guarantee safety for Party A:
    Add: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2.2 Party A requests that Party B be trained to
    The following specifications:
    Concerning of Laws.
    Concealed Pistol License
    Self Defense Training
    First Aid. (Optional)

    2.3 The scope of security service and duties of each security position mentioned above shall be:
    Maintain personal security for the site and Party A.

    ARTICLE 3 : SERVICE FEE
    3.1 Service fee:
    Party A has responsibility to pay Party B yearly service fee: $.01 ( one cent USD only !) per year.

    3.2 Payment :
    • Party A shall make payment to Party B one time per year.

    ARTICLE 4. SCOPE OF AUTHORITY OF SECURITY
    Party B shall provide security for Party B and Party A
    4.1 Authority to temporally detain/defend in the site those whom Party B witnesses an offenses of dishonesty, disorderly behavior, assault, or other criminal activity on the Site occupied by Party A, and to notify immediately to the police or other relevant authorities of such activity.


    ARTICLE 5. RESPONSIBILITY OF PARTY B
    Party B will maintain the following responsibilities in addition to those set forth in Articles 2 and 3.
    5.1 Party B shall treat all personnel to the Site with courtesy, and any security action taken will involve only those levels of force reasonably required under the circumstances. Party B shall use its best efforts to maintain good relationships with the local community surrounding the Site. In all circumstances, professionalism shall be expected of Party B.
    5.2 Party B shall be responsible for all income and personal income tax under the laws and regulations of Michigan.'
    5.3 Party B supplies any necessary equipments in order to protect Party A’s properties. The supplying of equipments including but not limited to fireamrs is free.
    ARTICLE 7. RESPONSIBILITY OF PARTY A
    Party A acknowledges that this agreement is a Contract for the performance of only the services stated in the Contract, and is not an insurance contract or guarantee against any losses.
    7.1 Party B requires of Party A that all persons authorized to be on the Site shall be allowed to bring and optionally conceal any firearms and equipment necessary for performance of said duties.
    ARTICLE 8. LIMITATION OF PARTY B'S RESPONSIBILITY
    Party A acknowledges that this agreement is a Contract for the performance of only the services started in the Contract, and is not an insurance contract or guarantee against any losses.
    Party B is not responsible for damages or injury which is caused by following factors:
    8.1 All types of natural disasters or accidents include lightning, flood, fire, typhoon or other harmful weather, electric shock, electrocution or any accidents which beyond control of the security of Party B.
    8.2 Destruction, theft, attempted theft, or damages caused by the action of Party A (representative, invitees in the Site with the authorization of Party A) which beyond control of the security guards of Party B.
    8.3 Damages,losses, or injuries caused by the fraud, intentionally harmful acts, gross negligence, or other willful or reckless conducts of Party A or its employees, agents, or invitees which are beyond the control or reasonable intervention of the guards of Party B;
    8.4 Political or labor disturbances, including acts of war, riots or strikes which impact upon the Site of Party A's workers on the Site; however Party B shall use their best efforts to support Party A.
    8.5 Events which occur outside of the Site
    8.6 Industrial accidents or chemical reactions which can only control by personnel who have specialized training and equipment
    8.7 Damage occasioned directly or indirectly by or through or inconsequence of acts of terrorism, committed by a person or persons acting on behalf of or in connection with any organization.
    ARTICLE 9. CONTRACT TERMINATION:
    This contract can be terminate under the following conditions:
    9.1 Both parties come to an agreement to terminate this contract in writing without penalty to either party.
    9.2 The time of contract expied.
    ARTICLE 10. GOVERNING LAW
    -The Contract shall be governed and interpreted under the laws of the Michigan-In the case that dispute of contract happens, the contract in US will be used for basis of the solution.
    -This contract shall be made in two (02) originals One (01) copy of contract shall be held by each Party.
    Representative of Party A Representative of Party B
    Well word kinda mangled the formatting while copying/pasting but you get the idea.

    I would appreciate any constructive criticism on it. I know we have a few armchair if not actual lawyers here

    If this idea passes the legal standard (or actual lawyers on here agree?) would it not be a good "workaround" to conceal for any CFZ whose owner is amicable to it? Knowing several bars (used to be on an APA pool league) that would never allow OC in their bar (legal or not) but would have no problems letting certain customers conceal carry.

    I realize CC is not the best option (nor a popular one on a OC forum hehe) but in a situation where you are trying to respect a property owners wishes in some place you have or want to be and also maintain the ability to be LEGALLY armed any form of carry is better then a sharp stick.
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    As long as its confusing, it will pass.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    If I were a bar owner I would never put my signature on something like that.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    If I were a bar owner I would never put my signature on something like that.

    Bronson
    Yeah the first version was a whole lot simpler but i don't believe it would meet the legal criteria for a contract viable enough to use as a legal defense in case they attempted to charge anyone with a violation of the CFZ

    There has to be a simple way of doing it utilizing the correct legalese to meet all of the requirements for a valid "Temp" employment/contractor status therefore exempting you from the restriction. I just don't quite know it.

    What I am aiming for is
    1. Simple (yeah right)
    2. A valid legal exemption under the letter of the law which would allow CC carry in a CFZ so one would have a good legal defense

    specifically subsection (d)
    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business.
    although if the language was correct i suppose it could work for other places that are CFZ (schools who don't want parents to OC for example, not that it would ever happen, just an example)

    3. No implied liability to either party

    I agree is should be as simple as the owner signing a note saying "Mr. John Dillinger is a citizen of good standing and I allow him to carry a firearm in any manner he chooses while in my establishment." but sadly it's not
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    Why not? Change in the sentence to "an employee in good standing" and you have it.

    Make it too complicated, and you will irritate the judge and the prosecutor.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    If I were a bar owner I would never put my signature on something like that.

    Bronson
    These are people that he calls friends, as long as it is clear the bar owner is not liable for heavy's actions, I do not see them having anything to fear. I know legal jibberish is confusing, but look at it this way, how many people ever read the fine print on the back of a amusement park ticket? It basically waives them from any liabilty. Yet they let their kids go screaming off a catapault driven roller coaster at 100 mph without ever batting an eye..... just saying ...

    Sent from my Polaroid PMID701i using Tapatalk 2
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    "No no it'll all be perfectly legaly, just sign this. Trust me."

    No thanks.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    "No no it'll all be perfectly legaly, just sign this. Trust me."

    No thanks.

    Bronson
    If it is important enough to you so that you can cc, I'd have an attorney look it over. It would not be unknown to be facing serious charges if everything is not covered.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You are right. .08 makes it "automatic", but you could be .01 and found to be "under the influence" -- with the right jury.

    Officer: He appeared a bit wobbly as he walked.
    Also under the influence can any number of things. For instance if you take something "over the counter" that "could" make you drowsy and you were to get in a car accident then you could get charged with a crime, regardless if it was a cause of the accident or not. Then you have to get it dealt with in a court, which may or may not believe you. I was a passenger in my friends car when he accidently rear-ended a car, cops came he got out and was doing the info-exchange thing when the cop asked if he had a cold. My friend said yes and said he had taken some nyquil for the sneezing runny nose. We got back in the car and were about to leave when the cop and his SGT came back and asked my friend to get out of the car when he did he was arrested for DUI Driving Under the Influence. He beat the charge, jury trial BTW because he had bought the non-drowsy type and I was when he took it and bought it and he had the stores time/dated reciept. He spent the weekend in jail and had a final cost of close to 10,000 for legal fees and other costs. This was many years ago but kinda reinforces the old saying "don't talk to police". I have to admit though none of the dialouge sounded like a interrogation, it was just a conversation between 2 people. But not for the cop, he new where he wanted to go and fished out the answer he was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    This is not as silly as it sounds. I think it could be arguably allowed.
    Maybe but unless the person signing the contract was my own kid there is zero chance I would ever sign that type of document. There are to many fingers in that jar for me to ever feel 100% safe from liabillity. Workers comp, my insureance company, tax issues, thing that would even happen that my "kid" wouldn't complain/make issue over. The list goes on,,,,

    However I would just place a sign at all entrances that stated.

    "ALL LEGAL FIREARM TYPES OF CARRY IS ALLOWED ON/AT THIS ESTABLISHMENT. OPEN/CONCEALED CARRY, AND NON CPL HOLDERS ARE ALLOWED/ WELCOME HERE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    If I were a bar owner I would never put my signature on something like that.

    Bronson
    See above,
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 05-03-2012 at 11:55 PM.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  22. #22
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Maybe but unless the person signing the contract was my own kid there is zero chance I would ever sign that type of document.
    Ding ding ding...we have a winner.

    I don't see any business owner commiting their signature to anything like that.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Ding ding ding...we have a winner.

    I don't see any business owner commiting their signature to anything like that.

    Bronson
    I don't either, but there is no harm in trying. The question as posed was not whether an owner would be wise for signing a contract to allow concealed carry, rather it was: IF such a contract were developed, could it possibly meet the requirements contained in the exception? I think it just might, but I would definitely run it by an attorney.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post

    However I would just place a sign at all entrances that stated.

    "ALL LEGAL FIREARM TYPES OF CARRY IS ALLOWED ON/AT THIS ESTABLISHMENT. OPEN/CONCEALED CARRY, AND NON CPL HOLDERS ARE ALLOWED/ WELCOME HERE.
    How could this be used to support an argument that CC is being done under the "employee" exception? Those without a cpl who think it's "OK" to carry at your bar could still be cited for violating MCL 750.234d, your wishes notwithstanding. The state is enforcing that part of the law... and it applies even if the owner prefers that people CC rather than OC.

    If I were the owner, I'd just post a sign: The primary source of income of this business is NOT the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. Or, I'd just write a letter to the OP stating the same. This way, any CPL holder who knows the law could carry and those who don't know the law are none the wiser.
    Whether alcohol is or isn't the primary source of income, having a sign stating that it is not would reduce the likelihood of there being any issues. In fact, I really don't know how a prosecutor would even go about proving that the sale of alcohol is the primary source of the business...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-04-2012 at 01:35 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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