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Thread: Help me convince Wilmot Mountain Flea Market to allow guns.

  1. #1
    Regular Member FarmerGreg's Avatar
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    Help me convince Wilmot Mountain Flea Market to allow guns.

    I was informed by Nick Wilmot from Wilmot Mountain Flea Market a few days ago that guns were not allowed at the flea market except for by 4 employee's and security staff. He said that I would find that a market is a safe place. He also said that open carry would provide an unfair haggling advantage in a flea market environment. I tried to explain the immunity issue and that he was loosing lots of business because there is 100,000 of us already and growing fast plus people that carry here from other states. Please let Nick know your thoughts so he knows there is alot of us.
    Contact info: Nick Wilmot 262-716-5716.
    nickiewilmot@gmail.com.

    Wilmot mountain flea market.
    11931 Fox River Rd.
    Wilmot, wi.

    Thank You for your help, Greg
    Greg
    Member: National Rifle Association, Wisconsin Carry, Inc

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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerGreg View Post
    He also said that open carry would provide an unfair haggling advantage in a flea market environment.
    LOL!!! What a maroon!

    "Yes, I am going to risk a felony charge to try to use my weapon to intimidate some poor schmuck into knocking $5 off the price of a secondhand item..."

    Seriously, one wonders if these people even reside in the same universe as us.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, is this an outdoor event? If so, I think he wouldn't be allowed to post the land, since his intent is obviously to prevent people with licenses from carrying a pistol there.
    See 943.13 (1m) (b) [trespass]
    Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out−of−state licensee if the owner’s or occupant’s intent is to prevent the licensee or out−of−state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner’s or occupant’s land.
    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerGreg
    ...guns were not allowed at the flea market except for by 4 employees and security staff.
    ...I tried to explain the immunity issue
    See 175.60 (21) (c)
    An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
    So, sadly, it looks like as long as he allows even ONE employee to carry concealed, even if it's a pocketknife, he maintains his immunity from liability.
    Though I don't know if that immunity would carry over to potential customers, since non-employees get their own paragraph. [175.60 (21) (b)]
    That's one for a court to sort out.

    He said that I would find that a market is a safe place.
    If it's so safe, why does he have security staff?
    Why does he allow his employees to carry self-defense tools?
    Is there a metal detector that everyone has to go through, or is he hoping that criminals intent on harming people will pay attention to his signs?

    He also said that open carry would provide an unfair haggling advantage in a flea market environment.
    Projection.
    That's how he'd feel, that's what he'd do - use it to intimidate people.

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    So, sadly, it looks like as long as he allows even ONE employee to carry concealed, even if it's a pocketknife, he maintains his immunity from liability.
    I may be wrong (I often am), but I think you're reading that backwards. The way you're referencing it would be akin to saying, "An employer that ALLOWS one or more employees to carry a concealed weapon is immune from liability".

    The way I'm interpreting that statute is akin to saying, "An employer that prohibits EVEN ONE employee from carrying a concealed weapon could be held liable".

    Of course, IANAL. God forbid a law be written in a clear, concise, easily understandable fashion...

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Nice site! Thanks for sharing!

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I may be wrong (I often am), but I think you're reading that backwards. The way you're referencing it would be akin to saying, "An employer that ALLOWS one or more employees to carry a concealed weapon is immune from liability".

    The way I'm interpreting that statute is akin to saying, "An employer that prohibits EVEN ONE employee from carrying a concealed weapon could be held liable".

    Of course, IANAL. God forbid a law be written in a clear, concise, easily understandable fashion...



    Nice site! Thanks for sharing!
    If the law does not prohibit, then it is allowed. The law can only prohibit or reinforce rights, it does not and cannot grant them.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    If the law does not prohibit, then it is allowed. The law can only prohibit or reinforce rights, it does not and cannot grant them.
    I understand that. I'm not sure how it applies to reasoning out 175.60 (21) (c), though.

    An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision.

    That suggests to me that if an employer allows one employee to CC, but prohibits the remainder, they are prohibiting one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon and are, therefore, subject to liability.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I understand that. I'm not sure how it applies to reasoning out 175.60 (21) (c), though.

    An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision.

    That suggests to me that if an employer allows one employee to CC, but prohibits the remainder, they are prohibiting one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon and are, therefore, subject to liability.
    They cannot allow one and not another. I'm sure there would be a lawsuit as there is a "special class" of person. The meaning in 175.60(21)(b)(c) is, if it is prohibited, you lose immunity. If it is not prohibited, then you have immunity.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I think there is still some confusion regarding the liability issue. The granted immunity is for a business or person that permits firearms from civil liability from actions that occur as a result of that decision. Example is Joe employee draws his firearm on a suspected criminal and fires. Old Man Harvey standing next to the suspect is hit by the bullet. Old Man Harvey can not sue the business for permitting Joe to carry a weapon. If a business posts that they can not carry, there is no greater personal liability pressed to that company for that decision. That being said that doesn't mean had you been able to carry in a business that posted and you received a loss at that business you couldn't claim the issue in a court of law that the business is liable for your loss because you could not defend yourself. That cite remains to be seen.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member FarmerGreg's Avatar
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    This is a weekend event that is held outside. It may or may not be legal by the law but until he is ok with it I will spend my money where I'm welcome. I would like all of you to let him know you seen this posting on OCDO (because I told him I was posting it) and let him know that you would be spending your money elsewhere also. I hope he will reverse his decision once he finds out I'm not the only one and that he is looseing a lot of customers.
    Greg
    Member: National Rifle Association, Wisconsin Carry, Inc

  10. #10
    Regular Member FarmerGreg's Avatar
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    He sent me a friend request on Facebook? I find this odd!

    I want to be your friend but leave your gun at home. LOL.

    I have not accepted yet.
    Greg
    Member: National Rifle Association, Wisconsin Carry, Inc

  11. #11
    Regular Member FarmerGreg's Avatar
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    correction

    I didn't inform him I was posting this post but I informed him he would be added to the list on OCDO of businesses that are anti gun. Sorry for the slight mistake.
    Greg
    Member: National Rifle Association, Wisconsin Carry, Inc

  12. #12
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I live real close to Wilmot and before Act 35, I open carried there (at the Flea Market) many times on many different weekends. I received compliments (support) from both vendors and attendees. I never received a single negative comment from anyone...

    On point... I will E-mail the above to the provided contact info with my feelings an this matter ... expressed politely of course.

    Farmer Greg... Please feel free to ue the above info in your dealings with the management of the Flea Market...

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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  13. #13
    Regular Member FarmerGreg's Avatar
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    Thank You Outdoorsman1

    Thank's Outsdoorsman1. I hope he gets a lot of responses so he will reconsider and reverse his decision.
    Greg
    Member: National Rifle Association, Wisconsin Carry, Inc

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    Does he have a sign posted? If there is not a sign at all points of entrance I would assume it's not valid and you could carry. I noticed when I was in Milwaukee last week the hospital was posted at the valet lot but if you parked in the garage and entered in the garage doors it was not posted. Weird if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bspiller View Post
    Does he have a sign posted? If there is not a sign at all points of entrance I would assume it's not valid and you could carry. I noticed when I was in Milwaukee last week the hospital was posted at the valet lot but if you parked in the garage and entered in the garage doors it was not posted. Weird if you ask me.
    One of the clinics in downtown Madison doesn't have all the entrances posted either, just the front entrance. I have never gone in through the front entrance.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I open carried at the Flea Market Today

    I open carryed at the Wilmot Flea Market today (most of the day) with no problems at all. I even spoke with a few employee's wearing the bright yellow vests and they said that the manager was (now) aware that open carry was legal and had no problem with it. In fact, I was told that "the boss" was there and open carrying. I did see one other person with a sidearm openly displayed on his right hip. He also seemed to have some sort of small badge on his belt next to his firearm. I did not speak to him. As usual, I receive nothing but positive comments from vendors as well as attendee's. A few vendors were from Ill-i-noise and were amazed to see someone open carrying a firearm. I picked up a couple of nice (legal) boot knives but passed on the switchblades one vendor was showing to a selected few attendee's (I was one of them and told him to be carefull of who he showed them too)...


    Outdoorsman1

    ETA: Some even commented on (really liked) "the gun" I have tatooed on my left shoulder...
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 06-03-2012 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Add info
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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  17. #17
    Regular Member Horseman's Avatar
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    Here is an email I just sent:

    Nick,

    Thanks for allowing law-abiding people to carry weapons at the flea market. Now that it is allowed, I will see if I can round up some of my carrying friends and spend some money there. Our general philosophy is that we only shop at places that allow you to defend yourself if the bad guys try to commit a crime. It is good to see another business owner that is on the side of the law-abiding citizens and not on the side of the criminals. Thanks again.

  18. #18
    Regular Member FarmerGreg's Avatar
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    Great News!!!!!! Thank's to everyone who helped with this. I will go shopping there now While open carrying and if all goes well I will send a thank you letter to Nick also. This is just proof that if we all stick together we can make a difference.
    Thank You everyone, Farmer Greg
    Greg
    Member: National Rifle Association, Wisconsin Carry, Inc

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