Open Carry

Can a person open carry on his hip while driving to a store or out to eat?

I have heard the open carry while driving (or just sitting in a vehicle) is considered concealed. When I am driving I take my gun off of my hip and lay it in my passengers seat. Dont know for sure why if it is on your hip while driving it would be considered concealed, but it is. As far as going out to eat....as long as it is a gun friendly place. Meaning that they dont have any "No Guns Allowed"signs posted. But even if they do it is not illegal to OC in their place of business but you may be ask to leave and would have to do so. Refusing to leave would be trespassing.

If you have the gun on the dash or your lap or plainly visible it is considered open in the car. If it is open on your hip when you get out of the car it is considered open on your hip if you sit down in the car. Considering the carry laws in Kentucky a prosecutor would have a hell of a time convincing a jury that somehow you were concealed carrying with a pistol on your hip in a car. Just my two cents on it. Personally I either keep it on my hip or in the glove box. It is easier to access in the glove box if I needed to so there is that to consider as well.

If you read the "hot topics" in these forums there is a lady fighting a CC charge while she was OC. She was sitting in her car when a LEO approached her and charged her with CC. It was on her hip.... I know it didnt happen in KY but I would still be careful..

self preservation said:

If you read the "hot topics" in these forums there is a lady fighting a CC charge while she was OC. She was sitting in her car when a LEO approached her and charged her with CC. It was on her hip.... I know it didnt happen in KY but I would still be careful..

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I agree with you 100%. Thats what Ive always been concerned with, would it ever turn out to be a concealed charge when your actually open carrying. Better safe than sorry......

And this is the crucial difference. In KY just because you get in the car doesn't mean it's automatically concealed. In fact, you have to try decently hard to conceal a firearm in a car in KY. If you put it under the seat it is considered concealed. If you threw an article of clothing over it on the seat or floor board it would be concealed. That being the case an attorney would have a difficult time persuading anyone that a firearm openly carried on your hip outside of a car magically becomes concealed when you sit inside one.

self preservation said:

If you read the "hot topics" in these forums there is a lady fighting a CC charge while she was OC. She was sitting in her car when a LEO approached her and charged her with CC. It was on her hip.... I know it didnt happen in KY but I would still be careful..

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Different story all together. Thats like saying that since in Ohio having a loaded firearm in a vehicle is concealed then it is the same in Kentucky.

The law is not clear but it would be hard to convince a jury that an openly carried firearm is concealed due to persecutive. If the officer is on the other side of the vehicle the firearm would be in plain view. I think it is open carry and none of the officers I have dealt with argued against that logic. If an officer is wanting to arrest you, you will be arrested. I would carry anyway you want to carry as long as it is not specifically against the law.

09jisaac said:

Different story all together. Thats like saying that since in Ohio having a loaded firearm in a vehicle is concealed then it is the same in Kentucky.

The law is not clear but it would be hard to convince a jury that an openly carried firearm is concealed due to persecutive. If the officer is on the other side of the vehicle the firearm would be in plain view. I think it is open carry and none of the officers I have dealt with argued against that logic. If an officer is wanting to arrest you, you will be arrested. I would carry anyway you want to carry as long as it is not specifically against the law.

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I asked a trooper this question once...and I know if I ask 20 different LEO I would probably get 20 different answers, but he told me that if he made a traffic stop and a person was OC but was in a seated position in their car that he would charge them with CC. It MAY be true that he would have a hard time convicing a jury that the act in itself could be considered CC, but I would rather not be the poor SOB that has to pay a ton of legal fees and risk the chance of having a charge against me. If someone else would like to test the waters and pay the price then by all means let me know how it goes......but for the time being I'm sticking with the better safe than sorry attitude...

hotrod said:

Here are, what I believe to be, the controlling rulings on conceal carry and what it is.

"In Delk v. Commonwealth, Ky. 344 S.W.2d 832 (1961), the court held that '[t]he concealment must be such as to prevent persons from seeing the weapon whose vision is not obscured by the carrier’s person or by anything other than the covering used to conceal it.' Id. at 833. In Prince v.Commonwealth, Ky. 277 S.W.2d 470 (1955), the court stated that a weapon is concealed when it is placed in a manner that it cannot readily be seen under ordinary observation. Id. at 472."

In Prince,carrying a handgun openly in a holster could readily be seen, in ordinary observation. The LEO may have to adjust his position, but it can be observed. Under Delk, you must be trying to prevent the LEO from seeing the weapon. So if you are not preventing it from being seen and it can be observed you are ok.

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Indeed - available to common observation - much the same in Virginia.

Sadly correct..

self preservation said:

I asked a trooper this question once...and I know if I ask 20 different LEO I would probably get 20 different answers, but he told me that if he made a traffic stop and a person was OC but was in a seated position in their car that he would charge them with CC. It MAY be true that he would have a hard time convicing a jury that the act in itself could be considered CC, but I would rather not be the poor SOB that has to pay a ton of legal fees and risk the chance of having a charge against me. If someone else would like to test the waters and pay the price then by all means let me know how it goes......but for the time being I'm sticking with the better safe than sorry attitude...

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I havent been on this forum in a long time, sadly enough I didnt really post too much to begin with, but I am back now....

Name is David and I OC on occasion in public, depending on where I am going or what I am doing. But my S&W Sigma stays in reach at least in the glove compartment 100% of the time I travel, then locked glove compatment when not in the vehicle if I am not carrying. Enough for introductions for now. I made a call the the KSP the other day because when I took my interest in OC and took m CCDW training two years ago the legal way to carry was in plain sight and in the glove compartment, center console or other storage was off limits. Well I realized lately this was updated to legally be in the center console or seat pockets, or any storage compartment in a motor vehicle installed by its manufacturer. I called to verify this with KSP and quoting the Kentucky State Police website http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/conceal.htm ,

KRS 527.020(8) states in part that:
"A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container, compartment, or storage space installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer, including but not limited to a glove compartment, center console, or seat pocket, regardless of whether said enclosed container, storage space, or compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism.

The trooper on the phone with me still argued that the center console will be deemed concealed. So with your statement regarding 20 different officers, 20 different answers rings to be true. The PD's across the nation need to have better means of educating officers with updates to laws then they do now. Someone out there will eventually be harrassed or arrested from a LEO not made aware of a change from over a year ago to a common issue.

my Nephew once arrested a guy because he had it on his side away from him (the officer). the court basicly threw it out and laughed at the officer. but my nephew said " well i made him get a lawyer he had to pay for"
no lesson learned, but i know he didn't do it again

papa bear said:

my Nephew once arrested a guy because he had it on his side away from him (the officer). the court basicly threw it out and laughed at the officer. but my nephew said " well i made him get a lawyer he had to pay for"
no lesson learned, but i know he didn't do it again

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Exact point I'm trying to make. You may beat the charge but you won't beat the ride. Some have argued that the officer will have a hard time making a charge like this stick....and they are probably right. But that LEO won't lose any sleep worrying about if it will stick or not....his neck isnt on the line, he isnt paying out of his pocket to fight it and he really doesnt give a shat at the end of the day. I was just saying that you MAY be charged with CC even if you are in fact OC'ing. I don't agree that it's right and I think it's absolute BS..but that's the world we live in...

gutshot said:

He will care if he is charged with a civil rights violation under 42 USC section 1983. I know that these suits are expensive and seldom pursued, but you can read throughout this board and find instances where this and other legal remedies are pursued. Police can not make a case on their own. Prosecutors must file the charges and complaints can be filed against both LEO and public officials. It is not easy to do and most people don't want to fight for their rights, they should. Arresting people who are not breaking any laws is illegal.
Remember the Duke Lacrosse Team case. That prosecutor lost his license to practice law. He's out of a job for life. May be flipping burgers at Mickey Dee's. Don't say it will never happen, but it will never happen if you don't pursue it.

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Thank you Mr. Gutshot...You answered a question I had before I even ask it. I was wondering if a 1983 suit would apply to this case. Thanks for reading my mind. lol... And I dont remember the Duke lacrosse team...thank God for google.

hotrod said:

And now a quote from me, "If you are not willing to fight for your rights, you don't deserve any!!!.
Hotrod

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Yes Mr. Hotrod. True words of wisdom.

hotrod said:

And now a quote from me, "If you are not willing to fight for your rights, you don't deserve any!!!.
Hotrod

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RIP Adam Youch

gutshot said:

Never ask the police, even the state police, for legal advice. Never ask them what the law says, they don't know. Never ask them what their policy is, who cares? Read the law for yourself. Make sure you have correctly understood what you have read. You already did most of this and found out the KSP doesn't even know what is on their own website. That should teach you something.

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Yeah, well curiosity got the best of me, regardless it is still sad that the people who enforce the law don't know it

gutshot said:

Exactly! They will keep trying to intimidate people until somebody puts a stop to it. Several on this board have done so and others should, too. Do people think this will change on it own or is it that everyone wants somebody else to do it. Someone else should be arrested or harassed, someone else should have to show up in court, someone else should go talk to the mayor, someone else should pay the lawyers fee, just let me know when its all over and its safe for me to enjoy the freedom others have secured for me.



This is the type of attitude that leads to complete tyranny. If the people will not assert their rights and fight for them, they will surely lose those rights. I am reminded of a quote from Tom Paine during the revolution, These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.

And then from Sam Adams.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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I really can see your point(refering to my post about playing it safe). But please try to see mine. You said that these types of law suits cost tons and tons of money. Believe me when I say that I dont even have a pound of money. Let alone tons of it. If I were stopped today by LEO and happened to be OC'ing but I was seated in my car, and this LEO decided to arrest me for CC, I may be able to come up with 5 or 6 hundred to beat the charge in court. But as far as enough money for a 1983 suit to to "set the record straight and show them what for", no way in hell I could afford that. And plus if I got an anti 2a judge that ruled against me on the CC charge I can then kiss my job bye bye, probably lose my house and cars, and would put my family in one hell of a hurting. Now if some other guy has the money and is willing to take the risk....more power to him and I wish him all the luck in the world. But my attitude is the benefit must out weight the risk. This may be a piss poor way of looking at it, but I can only do what I can only do.